Indian kid describes America

[kentonio]

Even if the extraction company is foreign based, the sovereign country will be taking a large cut in either taxation or extraction rights. In the Norwegian case they might be investing around the world, but the proceeds are coming back to Norway.

[giblets]

Since we're comparing GDP, and not GNI, the proceeds people receive from foreign investments aren't important.

[kentonio]

Since we're comparing GDP, and not GNI, the proceeds people receive from foreign investments aren't important.

But it's not 'people', it's the country receiving a share of the revenue. That's firmly in the GDP column isn't it?

[giblets]

But it's not 'people', it's the country receiving a share of the revenue. That's firmly in the GDP column isn't it?

I'm not sure what you mean by the country receiving the revenue instead of 'people'.

[kentonio]

Well if the country is taking a share of resource extraction revenue in the form of tax or extraction rights agreements, is that not directly contributing to GDP?

[giblets]

Tax revenues don't figure into the calculation of GDP. If oil is worth $100 a barrel and Norway produces a barrel of oil, that contributes $100 to Norway's GDP, and $0 to anyone else's, regardless of what taxes are paid, or what extraction rights agreements are in place.

[notyoueither]

Even if the extraction company is foreign based, the sovereign country will be taking a large cut in either taxation or extraction rights. In the Norwegian case they might be investing around the world, but the proceeds are coming back to Norway.

I think keeping much of the proceeds of the oil as well as the benefits from investments out of the Norwegian economy is part of the point of their international outlook. There's too much money to be used well domestically.

[Sava]

By Sava's logic, it's stupid to buy food because it all turns to shit. The value of a car is not in its resale value, but in the ability to move people and things tens of thousands of miles without much physical effort.

Nope. That's by your logic. I applaud more efficient means of transportation.

Cars are also not an essential component of sustaining human life.

You are really not good at this whole logic thing. Best to leave it to people with IQ's above room temperature.

[Felch]

Nope. That's by your logic.

You're the one who derides cars because they eventually break down.

I applaud more efficient means of transportation.

Um, congratulations?

Cars are also not an essential component of sustaining human life.

Neither are blow jobs. But cars and blow jobs both make life better.

You are really not good at this whole logic thing. Best to leave it to people with IQ's above room temperature.

Ouch. Did you come up with that yourself or did molly bloom help you?

[Aeson]

Imran's post about Norwegian GDP was based on current figures.

I mean it doesn't give any real insight into what the effect of the land has been overall. It's only a snapshot of where we are right now, in an economy that has leveraged past wealth gained largely from the land into a more service/information based economy.

So what? HC's point was that Norway's high GDP was a result of its oil and gas exploitation. Since they make up a majority of the country's exports, it seems like he was right.

Because it's hypocritical to adjust one side's benefit from natural resources down without doing the same for the other side.

Nobody is claiming that natural resources have no role in America's economy, just that Norway is an outlier from the rest of Europe as a result of the North Sea fields and its relatively small population.

HC and gribbler are doing very near that, completely ignoring and to a large extent denying that there are current benefits to our economy that have been derived from the land in the past.

I find it dishonest, and rather derogatory to Americans (and Norwegians) who have worked so hard to facilitate the extraction of value from the land to simply discredit or deny the value of that work.

[giblets]

I'm tired of people misusing the word "hypocritical". "Hypocritical" is not a synonym for "inconsistent".

[Aeson]

What's more valuable, a car or a hunk of metal that will become a car? Come on people, this is simple...

It depends on the situation. If you lack the ability to make cars, the metal still likely has other value, though perhaps not as much as it would have been. If you lack the material to make cars (or other important items) then the ability to make them has less value than if you had material to actually make the cars.

Today's situation is much different than in WWII for instance. Back then access to steel, oil, and having defensible geography often meant a big part of the difference between conquering or being conquered. We just happened to have the best hand in regards to all those things at the time, and it propelled us into a frontrunner status.

Certainly there was a lot of hard work done at the same time, but I don't think we can say it was hard work alone that won WWII. It's not like Axis soldiers and factory workers were lazy. Certainly there was a lot of hard work to maintain that superpower status, and we did so in a rather efficient way. But that doesn't mean the land wasn't important.

I for one am grateful that America had the resources (population, capital, resources, defensible geo positioning) necessary to help protect the free world from Fascists and Communists. Without any one of those things we'd could very well be speaking German, Japanese, and/or be dirt poor.

That's the clearest example of how access to resources at a critical juncture can lead to a great deal of value in the long run. But there are countless other small examples where wealth/power gained at one point impacts wealth/power later on.

[Aeson]

I'm tired of people misusing the word "hypocritical". "Hypocritical" is not a synonym for "inconsistent".

By discounting the effect of inputs other than "self", one necessarily overstates "self". This is a critical aspect of hypocrisy when making evaluations. The inability to apply the same reasoning to "self" (or that which you identify yourself with) to "others". Especially in regards to morality or ethics, which have major implications in this discussion (work ethic especially).

The saddest part of it all is it's very easy to make the work ethic argument in an indisputable manner, or the GNP argument (though not quite so outrageously stated) without having to resort to historical ignorance, without insulting those who work in industries related to resource extraction or stewardship of the land, and without any need for hypocrisy. HC's just taken a subject that should be an easy win and turned it into self-flagellation.

[giblets]

By discounting the effect of inputs other than "self", one necessarily overstates "self". This is a critical aspect of hypocrisy when making evaluations. The inability to apply the same reasoning to "self" (or that which you identify yourself with) to "others". Especially in regards to morality or ethics, which have major implications in this discussion (work ethic especially).

No matter how many times I read this I don't know what you're talking about.

The saddest part of it all is it's very easy to make the work ethic argument in an indisputable manner, or the GNP argument (though not quite so outrageously stated) without having to resort to historical ignorance, without insulting those who work in industries related to resource extraction or stewardship of the land, and without any need for hypocrisy. HC's just taken a subject that should be an easy win and turned it into self-flagellation.

I have no idea what "the work ethic argument" is referring to...? Who's claiming Americans simply have a stronger work ethic? That's a strawman. I also don't know where you got the idea that people engaged in resource extraction are somehow being insulted.

[Felch]

Yeah, the original argument was that Americans prefer material wealth to the European ideal of economic equality. Then at some point the **** just got out of hand. I blame Aeson for not sharing his shrooms with me. If we were on the same wavelength, this could be a productive thread.