Israel in Lebanon 1983

[regexcellent]

Fascinating that we're having this discussion in the backdrop of the IDF, a military notorious for questionable actions which are vehemently supported by posters here, actions which include pointing condition 1 weapons at US Marines and opening fire on the ground in front of Marine positions for the sole purpose of intimidation.

We point guns at people in "condition 1" (loaded, cocked, and safety off for those not familiar with the term) all the time as a matter of course in Afghanistan. We also shoot warning shots at people all the time, "for the express purpose of intimidation." In fact, we do it to unarmed civilians!

[Hauldren Collider]

Are you an American or an Israeli?

I'm an American who thinks countries have the right to defend themselves, does that answer your question?

[MRT144]

I'm an American who thinks countries have the right to defend themselves, does that answer your question?

Except when they quite obviously don't have that right and you get sooooooooooooooooooo mad that they try to.

[Al B. Sure!]

So what I'm getting is...

It's wrong to open fire on military forces that point condition 1 weapons on your men, open fire a few meters in front of your men, and run tanks through a fence towards your position...
It's not just wrong but obviously and clearly wrong to violate the laws of war even if it means lack of action will result in the deaths of US servicemembers.

However,
It is not wrong to aid and abet terrorist groups.
It is not wrong to aid and abet terrorist groups when they massacre civilians with your forces observing and providing illumination for night-time massacres.


I'm conceding everything can be complex and grey. For those holding these viewpoints, and doing so believing them to be clear-cut, what am I missing?

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm an American who thinks countries have the right to defend themselves, does that answer your question?

Does Lebanon have that right?

[MRT144]

HC is just trying to get a rise. He's not usually this inconsistent.

[regexcellent]

So what I'm getting is...

It's wrong to open fire on military forces that point condition 1 weapons on your men, open fire a few meters in front of your men, and run tanks through a fence towards your position...
It's not just wrong but obviously and clearly wrong to violate the laws of war even if it means lack of action will result in the deaths of US servicemembers.

Okay first of all stop saying "condition 1 weapons," you sound like a tool who's been chugging military kool-aid by the keg. They're "loaded guns."

Second, how is pointing a loaded gun at someone and firing it into the dirt breaking the laws of war?

Oh and third, I'm pretty sure you mean "condition zero" because if they were shooting the guns the safeties were off.

Does Lebanon have that right?

When did he say they didn't?

[Al B. Sure!]

Just because you fight bad guys doesn't make you the good guys. We're so capable of digesting this concept when it comes to the Afghan mujihadeen and Saddam Hussein and realizing in retrospect that we were wrong but Israel can do no wrong and is justified in all its transgressions.

The US military's counterinsurgency doctrines have always, back to Vietnamization and perhaps even back to the Banana Wars, been about winning hearts and minds. Our efforts have had mixed results but the principle of reaching out to the populace seems intrinsically right.

Does the IDF have similar doctrine and it's just not as reported in the media, because I've really never seen anything out of the IDF that resembles it.

[Hauldren Collider]

The US military's counterinsurgency doctrines have always, back to Vietnamization and perhaps even back to the Banana Wars, been about winning hearts and minds. Our efforts have had mixed results but the principle of reaching out to the populace seems intrinsically right.

Bahahaha own goal. Look how ****ing well that worked!

Israel is not going to win their hearts and minds. These are ****lords who deny the holocaust and want to push them all into the sea. There's not much point trying to convince them that Jews aren't just a kind of monkey you kill for sport, so why bother?

[C0ckney]

You don't see America propping up terrorists and abetting massacres like the IDF did.

have you never heard of areas of the world like south america or africa?

[regexcellent]

You may have noticed that we lost Vietnam, we lost Iraq, and now we're losing Afghanistan in spite of our hearts and minds doctrine? Maybe the Israelis don't do things the way we do because they got the memo?

edit: beaten like Chris Brown's girl

[Al B. Sure!]

Okay first of all stop saying "condition 1 weapons," you sound like a tool who's been chugging military kool-aid by the keg. They're "loaded guns."

I sound like a tool?

Second, how is pointing a loaded gun at someone and firing it into the dirt breaking the laws of war?

It's not but it's hostile intent/act.

Oh and third, I'm pretty sure you mean "condition zero" because if they were shooting the guns the safeties were off.

Of course. Different incidents.

[MRT144]

You may have noticed that we lost Vietnam, we lost Iraq, and now we're losing Afghanistan in spite of our hearts and minds doctrine? Maybe the Israelis don't do things the way we do because they got the memo?

edit: beaten like Chris Brown's girl

Why are you in the American military if all you wanna do is kill people like Israel?

[Hauldren Collider]

have you never heard of areas of the world like south america or africa?

I think Africa was the British and the French. And of course the Belgians. We never did much of anything there.

[regexcellent]

Why are you in the American military if all you wanna do is kill people like Israel?

Actually I'm leaving at the end of the semester, don't want ROTC to delay my graduation. That would cost me a ton of money, like $20k. I'm not on a ROTC scholarship.

Plus **** dealing with the like, 40 goddamn freshmen we have now.