Israel in Lebanon 1983

[giblets]

Yeah, but i dont think theres time to explain nuance in a foxhole. Alby wouldnt do it because it's morally wrong to him, not because he fears jail (although maybe he does). But explaining that to a bunch of Marines hopped up on adrenaline and machismo?

Is it machismo or just narcissism?

[Al B. Sure!]

It's pretty clear cut. You should not kill POW's or violate any other laws of war and it's not because of the fear of going to jail for it.

Even if not violating the law of war means the deaths of the 25 year old sergeant with two kids, the 19 year old lance corporal with the pregnant fiancee, etc.? For better or worse, the military has become acutely casualty-sensitive and it's the platoon commander who looked at his sergeant's wife and kids, his lance corporal's parents, and tells them he'll do everything he can to make sure they come home.

I was probably wrong to think it was clear-cut and black and white. Men with far more experience than me who fought in Fallujah and Ramadi said it's not.


I think you are all, as myself, coming into it from civilian backgrounds and never having experienced combat is making us ill-equipped to truly understand the complexities of these situations.

[giblets]

Even if not violating the law of war means the deaths of the 25 year old sergeant with two kids, the 19 year old lance corporal with the pregnant fiancee, etc.? For better or worse, the military has become acutely casualty-sensitive and it's the platoon commander who looked at his sergeant's wife and kids, his lance corporal's parents, and tells them he'll do everything he can to make sure they come home.

I was probably wrong to think it was clear-cut and black and white. It's not.

If he joined the marines and got a fiancee pregnant, isn't he the irresponsible one? It's natural that the members of the military would want to minimize their own risk of death, but that doesn't make it okay to commit war crimes. It's not even a gray area.

[Hauldren Collider]

Are these phalangists supposed to convince me I should be on Hezbollah's side and not Israel's?

So israel supported the phalangists. And the alternative was....?

Alby has yet to address the issue, despite all his whining about the Lebanon War, USS Liberty incident and so forth, that there is only one country in the region that is a stable, liberal democracy and it sure as **** ain't Lebanon.

[Al B. Sure!]

Are these phalangists supposed to convince me I should be on Hezbollah's side and not Israel's?

No you idiot, this **** is not binary! You're supposed to be on America's side! And America's side during the Lebanese Civil War was to keep the peace, protect and evacuate the PLO leadership (against Israel's wishes), and conduct a humanitarian mission.

So israel supported the phalangists. And the alternative was....?

To butt the **** out and not support terrorists? You don't see America propping up terrorists and abetting massacres like the IDF did.

[Al B. Sure!]

If he joined the marines and got a fiancee pregnant, isn't he the irresponsible one? It's natural that the members of the military would want to minimize their own risk of death, but that doesn't make it okay to commit war crimes. It's not even a gray area.

Tell that to the lieutenants in my platoon who were infantrymen in Fallujah in 2004.


I agree there's right and wrong but it's a grey and difficult right, not as simple as you seem to make it out to be.

Fascinating that we're having this discussion in the backdrop of the IDF, a military notorious for questionable actions which are vehemently supported by posters here, actions which include pointing condition 1 weapons at US Marines and opening fire on the ground in front of Marine positions for the sole purpose of intimidation.

[regexcellent]

Israel was there to keep people from raiding its border towns and shooting mortars over the border, to drive out the PLO, and to eliminate a major base of operations for terrorism within its territory. Those are fairly clear-cut, rational, and justifiable objectives.

Israel wasn't responsible for the misdeeds of Christian groups any more than we were responsible for the abuses of Syngman Rhee.

[Hauldren Collider]

To butt the **** out and not support terrorists? You don't see America propping up terrorists and abetting massacres like the IDF did.

Yeah, okay, so they should just butt out and let Hezbollah shell them and shoot rockets at them. That's a plan

[regexcellent]

I think the rockets came later. Hezbollah IIRC postdates the 1982 invasion. They were after PLO/PFLP types. Note also that this was pre-Intifada.

[MRT144]

Tell that to the lieutenants in my platoon who were infantrymen in Fallujah in 2004.


I agree there's right and wrong but it's a grey and difficult right, not as simple as you seem to make it out to be.

Fascinating that we're having this discussion in the backdrop of the IDF, a military notorious for questionable actions which are vehemently supported by posters here, actions which include pointing condition 1 weapons at US Marines and opening fire on the ground in front of Marine positions for the sole purpose of intimidation.

Also, there simply isnt time to debate how existential a marine should be to a marine in a combat zone.

[Al B. Sure!]

Israel wasn't responsible for the misdeeds of Christian groups any more than we were responsible for the abuses of Syngman Rhee.

Umm. Ariel Sharon was found by the Kahan Commission to bear personal responsibility for the massacres.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahan_Commission

[Felch]

You don't see America propping up terrorists and abetting massacres like the IDF did.

[Hauldren Collider]

I'm thinking of the mujahideen right now, is anyone else? I don't even think propping them up was a bad idea, either. We got terrorists to kill communists and vice versa. Efficiency

[MRT144]

Yeah, okay, so they should just butt out and let Hezbollah shell them and shoot rockets at them. That's a plan

Are you an American or an Israeli?

[Hauldren Collider]

Also, the marines were clearly doing a great ****ing job of keeping the peace. Semper Fi, am I right?