Israel in Lebanon 1983

[MRT144]

I love how this is one thing that is sure to piss marines off because of their fixation on machismo and manliness.

[DinoDoc]

People say the A-10 looks unsexy but I think it is the monster truck to the Lamborghini that is the F-22. It oozes masculinity. It spurts hot semen 30mm out of its massive phallus cannon.

Bring the Rain! Baysplosions!

Was curious at the time how close to reality that is for a close air support operation.

[The Mad Monk]

WARNING: graphic images

[Hauldren Collider]

Lebanon has great food and skiing. What is there not to love?

Hezbollah?

[MRT144]

Thats an imported thing. It's like faulting France for having McDonalds.

[regexcellent]

Bring the Rain! Baysplosions!

Was curious at the time how close to reality that is for a close air support operation.

You can find like half a bajillion videos of A-10s blowing stuff up in Afghanistan. Usually the distance is pretty big. From what I've been told you're not going to get a danger close mission without something like a 2-star signing off on it.

Thats an imported thing. It's like faulting France for having McDonalds.

You can choose whether or not to go to McDonalds, you don't get to choose whether you get ganked by terrorists.

[Hauldren Collider]

I don't Fault the French for having McDonald's. But I would fault them if the southern part of their country were run by a terrorist organization, imported or not.

xpost

[MRT144]

You two are humorless literalists.

[Al B. Sure!]

The sick thing is, they'd probably be pro-Phalangist, just because Israel was.

[giblets]

What's a Phalangist and what is so sick about it?

[The Mad Monk]

They collect stamps; it's a very anal retentive hobby.

[Al B. Sure!]

What's a Phalangist and what is so sick about it?

Christian terrorist organization sponsored by Israel that was responsible, under IDF supervision and abetment, for the Sabra and Shatila massacres which killed as many as 3500 people. Then defense minister Ariel Sharon resigned over the incident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

Let me clarify something for those asking about the discussion. The purpose was to demonstrate alternative means of handling a situation in military operations other than war. The textbook response would be that deadly force is authorized given that the IDF were demonstrating hostile intent and hostile action.

The fascinating thing about these discussions is that the prior enlisted officers (who were typically Staff Sergeants) always come on the side of even committing war crimes in order to save the lives of Marines. One discussion utilized a, I suspect, fictional account from a film starring Samuel L. Jackson in which his character, after taking captive an Vietnamese officer and radioman, shots the radioman in order to get the officer to order his men to cease a successful attack against American troops. The majority of us were not willing to commit a war crime (shooting a POW) but the prior enlisted lieutenants were pretty determined to do so and were bothered by the thought of Marine officers not willing to bite the bullet in court for the lives of Marines. When I said I felt the decision is easy because it's clear-cut by the Laws of War and the Geneva Convention, one of our highly respected and combat veteran of Fallujah former Staff Sergeants said I can never say that to my Marines because it's saying I would let them die so I don't face a court martial.

Clearly, things are complex and there's a ton of grey. I'm puzzled by the black and white unanimity demonstrated by posters here over this issue.

We can say that escalating force might be hot-headed or quick on the trigger but you NEVER want to wait too long. You never want to let Marines die because you were too hesitant to escalate force.

[MRT144]

If everyone respected the law to the same extent as everyone else, morale shouldnt be too adversely affected by admitting that doing the right thing in the service of your country is worth giving your life.

But again, marines are not klingons or vikings.

[giblets]

It's pretty clear cut. You should not kill POW's or violate any other laws of war and it's not because of the fear of going to jail for it. If you joined the Marines you volunteered to put your life at risk so stop acting like your lives are the end all and be all.

[MRT144]

Yeah, but i dont think theres time to explain nuance in a foxhole. Alby wouldnt do it because it's morally wrong to him, not because he fears jail (although maybe he does). But explaining that to a bunch of Marines hopped up on adrenaline and machismo?