What America really needs is more small business owners like this.

[Dinner]

One of the reasons I would like to find a way to force big fast food companies to pay their workers more is because of stuff like this:

http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-fast-food-minimum-wage-20131014,0,1971900.story

More than half of fast food workers, including managers working full time, are on public assistance. I would rather the fast food companies pay these costs instead of taxpayers paying these costs. I'm still against a minimum wage but there simply must be some method to force companies to pay instead of the rest of us paying.

[giblets]

How are you against a minimum wage and for forcing fast food companies to pay their workers more at the same time?

[Sava]

Exactly. Low wages costs everyone more in the long run.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-10-15/mcdonalds-low-wages-come-with-a-7-billion-side-of-welfare

Pay people what's necessary to support themselves and they wouldn't need government programs. Hate government programs? Advocate higher wages!

It's why right-wingers fail on the abortion argument. What prevents unwanted pregnancies? Contraception! You want to get rid of abortions? Pass out free condoms.

[Sava]

How are you against a minimum wage and for forcing fast food companies to pay their workers more at the same time?

They shouldn't need to be forced to do it. I can't speak for Oerdin... but I'd rather business makes the choice that is best for business... paying workers higher wages!

[PLATO]

They shouldn't need to be forced to do it. I can't speak for Oerdin... but I'd rather business makes the choice that is best for business... paying workers higher wages!

Wait...if Wal-Mart paid higher wages then their employees might be able to shop at Sears! Nope...they have the model right.

[Sava]

Wait...if Wal-Mart paid higher wages then their employees might be able to shop at Sears! Nope...they have the model right.

But in all seriousness, government programs is basically the market correcting itself. All of humanity is the market. While some may be content with letting people starve in the streets, most recognize the need to prevent that. The market also functions much more efficiently when more people can participate in it. It is an infinite growth model, after all. The results of representative democracy, with respect to social programs, is a function of the market. It just isn't a set of decisions made by directly by the sale of goods and services.

People coming together to vote on policy is as much a function of the market as when people vote on the value of things with their resources.

Those that argue otherwise often do so because they have a fundamental misunderstanding of this.

[Dinner]

How are you against a minimum wage and for forcing fast food companies to pay their workers more at the same time?

That's the hard part and why I haven't listed a specific policy. I'm not sure how to do it but as I said there simply must be a way to do it. Perhaphs a higher tax rate on companies which dump their employees on the public dole or something though that would also have some negative impacts. Like I said, it's a complicated problem but there simply must be some policy method of discouraging free riding by corporations.

[PLATO]

But in all seriousness, government programs is basically the market correcting itself. All of humanity is the market. While some may be content with letting people starve in the streets, most recognize the need to prevent that. The market also functions much more efficiently when more people can participate in it. It is an infinite growth model, after all. The results of representative democracy, with respect to social programs, is a function of the market. It just isn't a set of decisions made by directly by the sale of goods and services.

People coming together to vote on policy is as much a function of the market as when people vote on the value of things with their resources.

Those that argue otherwise often do so because they have a fundamental misunderstanding of this.

True. The problem is in they type of social programs or regulations the government compels. Many are generally well meaning but poorly thought out and do not achieve the desired result.

[Dinner]

Wait...if Wal-Mart paid higher wages then their employees might be able to shop at Sears! Nope...they have the model right.

Walmart most certainly doesn't have the right model. Notice how Costco pays workers twice as much yet actually makes far more profit by any reasonable measurement (per employee, per sq ft of retail space, per store, etc...). Even if you just compare Sam's Club (Walmart's members club) to Costco then Costco kills Sam's Club almost 2:1 despite having fewer stores.

[Sava]

True. The problem is in they type of social programs or regulations the government compels. Many are generally well meaning but poorly thought out and do not achieve the desired result.

Nope. That's not the problem at all. Low wages existed before government programs. Not after.

[PLATO]

Walmart most certainly doesn't have the right model. Notice how Costco pays workers twice as much yet actually makes far more profit by any reasonable measurement (per employee, per sq ft of retail space, per store, etc...). Even if you just compare Sam's Club (Walmart's members club) to Costco then Costco kills Sam's Club almost 2:1 despite having fewer stores.

Got a problem with understanding sarcasm, do you? Well okay then.

[PLATO]

Nope. That's not the problem at all. Low wages existed before government programs. Not after.

That was a response to the effect of social programs that you alluded to...not their desirability or the consequences of not having them. While what you say is true about wages, it is not really a response to what I was saying.

[Sava]

That was a response to the effect of social programs that you alluded to...not their desirability or the consequences of not having them. While what you say is true about wages, it is not really a response to what I was saying.

Such social programs are successful for their intended purposes. Lots of people are able to put food on the table because of them. If they fail in some way, it's only because conservatives try to sabotage them... or create ridiculous hoops to jump through.

[MrFun]

Wait...if Wal-Mart paid higher wages then their employees might be able to shop at Sears! Nope...they have the model right.

For me, higher minimum wage law is not so that more people can shop at up-scale stores and such. It's about "working to live," rather than "living to work."

It's about getting loads of working poor people off of welfare (if minimum wage would be permanently indexed to inflation), and enabling to afford necessities without welfare assistance.

[kentonio]

They shouldn't need to be forced to do it. I can't speak for Oerdin... but I'd rather business makes the choice that is best for business... paying workers higher wages!

Yet some businesses already do this and others don't. People are inherently motivated by self, with is why Walmart have taken over Americas retail despite paying their staff and suppliers like ****, and despite this being common knowledge amongst their customers. As long as people are willing to shop at these places just to shave pennies off their bills, then they'll keep exploiting their staff.

Without government intervention there will always be businesses that pay ****ty wages, and there will always be people in the most vulnerable economic groups who fill those jobs through desperation. Minimum wage does not mass kill jobs, it's a corporatist fantasy. That extra money going into working peoples pockets comes straight back out again into the economy.