Pope sends direct message to Ben

[regexcellent]

The Catholic Church contends that sex should be for procreation and that birth control prevents that. Using birth control is a separate and fundamentally lesser infraction than abortion.

[Ben Kenobi]

I've read that sex with sheep can develop a brief life. MOBIUS may be a true medical marvel. The only one that lived.

I thought they called that 'medical marvel', "Welsh".

[SlowwHand]

I've read that sex with sheep can develop a brief life. MOBIUS may be a true medical marvel. The only one that lived.

[Ben Kenobi]

To each their own ... I'm not here to judge your sexual fantasies.

Well, I'm just sayin'. You seem to be prejudiced against Goat ****ers. Why is that? Don't you consider yourself openminded?

I take that back. I don't think you should have sex with babies. Goats are probably always up for it, but taking advantage of a child like that is just not right!

Some of us are quite satisfied with women.

[Aeson]

Sure you left out sex with goats.

To each their own ... I'm not here to judge your sexual fantasies.

It is odd that people, in denying one aspect, "sex + babies", also deny the other aspect, "babies + sex", such that the statement, if you want a baby have sex is a radical departure from modern mores.

I take that back. I don't think you should have sex with babies. Goats are probably always up for it, but taking advantage of a child like that is just not right!

[Ben Kenobi]

There are many other viable options:

a) birth control pills
b) use a condom
c) have sex with the same gender
d) have sex with toys

Sure you left out sex with goats.

I'm sure many gays and lesbians want babies. It's good of you to allow at least them to have sex.

It is odd that people, in denying one aspect, "sex + babies", also deny the other aspect, "babies + sex", such that the statement, if you want a baby have sex is a radical departure from modern mores.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm going to regret posting in this thread (and have no intention of following up on this)... but this is entirely wrong.

How so?

The pill is not an abortifacent. It does _not_ cause an abortion if a fertilized egg is implanted in the uterus.

Oddly enough, that's exactly what I was saying. It does, however, cause an early term embryo to die. There is no such thing as a 'fertilized egg'. At this stage of pregnancy, the unborn child is an embryo. I was referring to the period of time prior to implantation. Yet you come here and state, "x does nothing after implantation". Which confirms what I was saying, does it not?

It also does not cause, directly, almost any of the things you suggest (or, in fact, almost any of the ultimate effects). You still can get pregnant on the pill (around 0.3% do, even when using it properly, taking it at the same time every day). Taking the pill while pregnant does not harm the fetus (thus leading to hilariously bad television shows).

Never implied that it harmed a fetus. I did state, (and truthfully), that it can and does result in the death of embryos.

Ben, none of these are relevant to Catholic doctrine, in any event.

Yes, it is relevant to Catholic doctrine in Humanae Vitae.

Catholic doctrine is far, far simpler. Quit making stuff up and just stick to the actual doctrine - you'll find it's much easier. Humanae Vitae is simple and to the point. It's wrongheaded, out of date, paternalistic if not misogynistic (probably that too), and seems to be written for luddites, but it's far better than bad science or the all-out misogyny that you've got going here.

Finally, this love is fecund. It is not confined wholly to the loving interchange of husband and wife; it also contrives to go beyond this to bring new life into being. "Marriage and conjugal love are by their nature ordained toward the procreation and education of children. Children are really the supreme gift of marriage and contribute in the highest degree to their parents' welfare.

The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life.

This particular doctrine, often expounded by the magisterium of the Church, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.

Men rightly observe that a conjugal act imposed on one's partner without regard to his or her condition or personal and reasonable wishes in the matter, is no true act of love, and therefore offends the moral order in its particular application to the intimate relationship of husband and wife.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

How is this any different than from what I've already been saying throughout the thread?

[Aeson]

One cannot live without breathing whereas one can live without having sex. That's one.

It's sad to see how you justify your sinning just to continue living ...

If you don't want babies don't have sex.

There are many other viable options:

a) birth control pills
b) use a condom
c) have sex with the same gender
d) have sex with toys

If you do want babies then you should have sex.

I'm sure many gays and lesbians want babies. It's good of you to allow at least them to have sex.

[snoopy369]

It's all got to do with how the pill works. It doesn't prevent contraception. One of it's mechanisms is to harden the endometrium.

I'm going to regret posting in this thread (and have no intention of following up on this)... but this is entirely wrong.

The pill is not an abortifacent. It does _not_ cause an abortion if a fertilized egg is implanted in the uterus. It also does not cause, directly, almost any of the things you suggest (or, in fact, almost any of the ultimate effects). You still can get pregnant on the pill (around 0.3% do, even when using it properly, taking it at the same time every day). Taking the pill while pregnant does not harm the fetus (thus leading to hilariously bad television shows).

Primarily, what the pill (progestin/estrogen) does is prevent the spike of hormones that would otherwise occur during ovulation. It reduces (not eliminates) the levels of Gonadotropin-releasing hormone, which at higher levels would normally lead to higher levels of FSH and LH, which lead to ovulation and many of the other factors that produce pregnancies.

Ben, none of these are relevant to Catholic doctrine, in any event. Catholic doctrine is far, far simpler. Quit making stuff up and just stick to the actual doctrine - you'll find it's much easier. Humanae Vitae is simple and to the point. It's wrongheaded, out of date, paternalistic if not misogynistic (probably that too), and seems to be written for luddites, but it's far better than bad science or the all-out misogyny that you've got going here.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ok, now that we're agreed that if you don't have sex you will die, then why is it ok to breathe if you aren't currently procreating? Are you insinuating that there are other things a person can do in life other than procreate?

One cannot live without breathing whereas one can live without having sex. That's one.

Two, the Catholic church teaches, that one of the purposes of sex is babies. If you don't want babies don't have sex. If you do want babies then you should have sex. Both are true.

[Aeson]

Ok, now that we're agreed that if you don't have sex you will die, then why is it ok to breathe if you aren't currently procreating? Are you insinuating that there are other things a person can do in life other than procreate?

[Ben Kenobi]

BK, you should light yourself on fire to test your faith. If God loves you, he'll stop the flames.

You first. Clearly you believe that God loves you more you should apply your own test.

[Ben Kenobi]

If you don't have sex you will die.

"on a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."

[Sava]

BK, you should light yourself on fire to test your faith. If God loves you, he'll stop the flames.

[Ben Kenobi]

You aren't burning nearly enough people at the stake to make such claims

Why would I burn the steak? I'm good at bbqing.