Syria thread

[C0ckney]

Ie a hugely complicated mess that was left without any real solution by the colonial powers and now is a ****storm no-one has a comfortable answer for.

it's very complicated yes, but not for the reasons you are suggesting. you need to look at syria's post-colonial history for the real answers. the only thing i can do is to suggest that you read some more about it.

Not true, any war can flip very quickly. The rebels could collapse in the next few weeks, or vice versa.

anything is possible, but looking at the current situation such an outcome seems very improbable.

Not really, Assad is winning and unless we take action to oppose that then the likelihood is that he will win. Inaction can be a form of support in itself.

what do you base that on?

the rebels made advances last year, the government made some this year and both sides have gained and lost territory in the recent fighting. the situation is somewhat fluid, but it looks unlikely that either can win an outright victory.

That's not ironic at all, you can help people achieve self determination without then forcing their future choices. We helped them become oppressed but suddenly helping remove that oppression is supposedly interference?

this is just meaningless. self determination for whom?

There are not two sides, the rebel side is comprised of various different elements of Syrian society.

you can group the belligerents into two sides (if you exclude the kurds who are fighting on their own account). they both contain many different elements. one of the reasons that the war looks likely to drag on is that both sides have broad based support. a fact you seem to have ignored.

As for the ethnic cleansing, did you not read what I wrote? Their self determination may well involve mass bloodshed as they reform their country into one that suits their people, and I'm all for using all the influence and aid we can to find peaceful solutions to those problems, but not giving them an opportunity to self determine their future just means we're pushing a problem further down the road.

so 'self-determination' means a bloodbath? an islamic fundamentalist state? a country where christians and other minorities have no place? and you want us to take action to make that happen? that is actually monstrous.

you're being very dishonest here too, when you say that you're in favour of peaceful solutions. you're in favour of bombing syria, and of sending weapons to the rebels so that they win and impose their will on the whole of syria. the same rebels who have shown themselves to be just of capable of brutality and acts of pure barbarism, as the current regime. that's what you're in favour of. at least have the courage to admit it.

You mean the same inaction that has so far led to 100,000 people dying in the civil war?

no i mean a real international effort for a negotiated solution. we have seen nothing like that, at least since kofi annan's mission. we need to send aid, to make the lives of those affected by the conflict more bearable and then push for a settlement.

Meanwhile Russia laughs, pours more weapons to the Assad regime and tens of thousands more people die.

while the gulf states and turkey give weapons and money to the rebels. both sides have backers with lots of guns and deep pockets. this is why a negotiated settlement is the only solution.

[Sava]

Fixed this for you.

Likewise we dodged a bullet with Obama v. McCain in 2008. Craptastic v. Insane.

http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill...thout-congress

Nah. Bush ruined an already weakened economy... the knockout blow after Reagan started the current mess.

Obama can't fix it because Republicans don't want him to.

But I would agree that Obama sucks. Just for different reasons that you believe.

[Dinner]

In a fight between Assad and AQ affiliated groups, why are we obligated to act at all?

You'd have to be truly ignorant to think all the dozens of rebel groups are all affiliated with AQ. The vast majority of them are not nor even religiously based. Most of them are based on sectarian lines such as race, nationality, regional affiliation, and to a much lesser extent religion. For instance the Kurds have their own group, Christians have their group, the Shia want nothing to do with AQ, while the largest single group, the Free Syrian Army (which itself has a bunch of subfactions), is mostly united on wanting an end to the Asad dictatorship. Hell, most of the Sunni extremists, who don't even make up a large percentage of the Sunnis, aren't even from Syria.

[Sava]

as opposed to falsely ignorant?

[DinoDoc]

the Free Syrian Army (which itself has a bunch of subfactions), is mostly united on wanting an end to the Asad dictatorship. Hell, most of the Sunni extremists, who don't even make up a large percentage of the Sunnis, aren't even from Syria.

Videos show joint Al Nusrah (AQ offshoot), Free Syrian Army attacks in ancient village

The al-Nusra Front, an al-Qaida affiliate, has been one of the more effective rebel groups fighting Assad.

[Sava]

What are you trying to argue, DD?

Just posting random nonsense?

Christ, this is Oerdin. If you can't even pwnage him, just give it up. It's like failing to steal candy from a baby.

[kentonio]

JM

[kentonio]

you're being very dishonest here too, when you say that you're in favour of peaceful solutions. you're in favour of bombing syria, and of sending weapons to the rebels so that they win and impose their will on the whole of syria. the same rebels who have shown themselves to be just of capable of brutality and acts of pure barbarism, as the current regime. that's what you're in favour of. at least have the courage to admit it.

Sorry but you're just being a typical wide eyed peacenik who can't accept that there isn't a happy ending to be had. A huge chunk of the population support the government a huge chunk support the rebels and then another huge chunk are just in the middle. You seem to want both the government and rebels to go away as if it's two armies you can sweep off the table and leave all the happy folk. The rebels are for the large part just the oppressed people of Syria fighting to be free. Yes there's now a large Islamist force too and various other factions, but normal Syrian civilians are fighting and dying in huge numbers to overthrow Assad, and you don't seem to give that much of a **** about their sacrifice to be quite honest.

no i mean a real international effort for a negotiated solution. we have seen nothing like that, at least since kofi annan's mission. we need to send aid, to make the lives of those affected by the conflict more bearable and then push for a settlement.

Sure, because with 100,000 dead Syrians already, the government and rebels are going to be able to meet across a table and just work together for the good of the nation. Right, and I have a bridge in Alaska you might want to buy.

[Sava]

Why Alaska?

[kentonio]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravina_Island_Bridge

[DinoDoc]

What are you trying to argue, DD?

That AQ is a significant player in the rebellion being the most effective fighters on the rebel side and to argue otherwise only shows your and Oerdin's stupidity.

[The Mad Monk]

Today is Assad's birthday.

[Sava]

[Sava]

That AQ is a significant player in the rebellion being the most effective fighters on the rebel side and to argue otherwise only shows your and Oerdin's stupidity.

Al Qaeda is just a lazy word. Nobody is AQ anymore.

[C0ckney]

Sorry but you're just being a typical wide eyed peacenik who can't accept that there isn't a happy ending to be had. A huge chunk of the population support the government a huge chunk support the rebels and then another huge chunk are just in the middle. You seem to want both the government and rebels to go away as if it's two armies you can sweep off the table and leave all the happy folk.

this is nothing like what i wrote. debate is better when the participants actually respond to each other's points.

The rebels are for the large part just the oppressed people of Syria fighting to be free. Yes there's now a large Islamist force too and various other factions, but normal Syrian civilians are fighting and dying in huge numbers to overthrow Assad, and you don't seem to give that much of a **** about their sacrifice to be quite honest.

this is a silly, emotional argument.

it's a civil war, of course ordinary people are fighting and dying. you, however, only seem to want to see one side.

Sure, because with 100,000 dead Syrians already, the government and rebels are going to be able to meet across a table and just work together for the good of the nation. Right, and I have a bridge in Alaska you might want to buy.

conflicts usually end with people talking to each other and settling their differences. i don't see what is hard to understand about this. the best solution for syria, that is, the only one which isn't horrifying, would be a negotiated settlement, the west and the international community could work towards that.