Today's SCOTUS ruling - Affirmative Action

[Wiglaf]

Who said you can't do anything about culture?

[Hauldren Collider]

Re: "black culture,"

1. Covert racism is pretty well documented by this point. There's a new study practically every week showing discrimination in the workplace, by law enforcement, by various government agencies, etc. I'd dig some up, but, y'know--lazy. I think the most recent to hit the press was something about how ex-cons are less likely to be hired if they're white...and a LOT less likely to be hired if they're black. There's a huge discrepancy. Basically, if you're black and have a criminal record (and last I heard, 25% of black males in the US now do), you're trapped in a hole.

Completely agree. This is a big problem that needs to be addressed. But it's also something that can be avoided if you're careful--it is possible to grow up without a criminal record. Which is not to say that a mistake made when you are 22 should follow you for the rest of your life. Just that you can also take responsibility and avoid being trapped in the hole.

The thing about covert racism is that, from my understanding, people are more racist against the foreign (as in different) culture than the skin color. I know this is an overused example that is frequently a code-word, but for instance, white people don't have a problem with Bill Cosby.

2. The set of behaviors holding poor blacks back are largely the same as those holding poor whites back--failure to save or budget, lack of interest in education, early sexual behavior with no contraceptive use, drug abuse, etc. It's not "black culture," it's "poor culture." They're what Rod Dreher calls "culturally poor." Now, the ranks of the culturally poor include (at least proportionately to total population makeup) more blacks than whites, but you can't blame this on the hippity-hop music. Besides,

Also agree with this. Even so, you don't get the large white slums the way you get large black slums with failing schools and no way out. I think the problem has to be torn out with school reform in poor urban districts, and teaching kids that they don't have to grow up like their parents.

3. A lot of the worst parts of "black culture" are actually pushed by us honkies. Behind every gangster rapper waxing lyrical about ho-smackin' and weed are about five white (or sometimes Jewish) producers. Ditto the shameful proliferation of black stereotypes on film, the idolization of uncivilized pro athletes, ridiculously overpriced shoes...

It sells better among black people than white people. Businessmen might be making money off of it but I don't think it's really fair to say that they're pushing it. The culture has to be there in the first place for someone to get rich off of it.

4. Really, it's just a glib, lazy way to wash one's hands of the matter. Maybe not in your case, but I've heard the "black culture" line before, and it usually prefaces a shrug and a change of subject. Hey, it's their culture! Nothing we can do about it! Of course, given the extremely strong influence culture has on one's thinking, there's not a whole lot one could reasonably expect them to do about it, either.

I don't agree, I think something needs to be done to address it. It's a problem that bothers me greatly. Maybe some people use this to wash their hands of it, but to me, it's a matter of addressing the root cause rather than continuing policies that have failed to eliminate the generational poverty problem despite being in place for 50 years.

H.C., you've received a first-class education, proper nutrition as you were growing up, the love of two parents, no drugs or abuse...and of all the values you were brought up with, you've discarded only the Catholic religion. And even there, I don't know if your parents were devout, and you've retained some of the trappings of Catholicism, e.g. you're pro-life. Can you, with a straight face, tell me that it's a simple matter of these people (many of whom are uneducated, raised on dubious nutrition by single parents, and saddled with substance problems) deciding to cast off the only way of life they've ever known--which generally involves alienating their friends and family--and figure out non-dysfunctional behavior patterns unaided? That's not "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" so much as "inventing rocket boots."

Yes, I'm a very lucky person, something that I try never to forget. You're close but not quite right on Catholicism. Mom's catholic, Dad's Jewish, I never really took to either religion, and I have my pro-life opinion for my own reasons, but I take your point.

The important thing to note is that even though racism still exists, and can add significant hurdles, it used to be impossible for black people to achieve from certain areas. That's no longer true. Now, with the skill and motivation, anyone regardless of race can achieve. That's the key point. Children of immigrants tend to have that motivation, for whatever reason, which is why I say it is cultural.

[Docfeelgood]

I agree.



No. Not really. So some entitled over-achieving brats have to go to their second choice for college... big deal.

To equate that with actual racial discrimination is ****ing retarded. They aren't being denied a job or a home because of the color of their skin. They aren't being shouted at on the street. They aren't being beat up or lynched.

So think about actual racism for a moment Doc. Think of how horrible that is.

Now compare it to some rich white kid being told they have to go to Brown instead of Harvard.

OH THE HUMANITY

Well, I was thinking of on the job. Example..... People apply and take a test for promotion on a job. Not determined on the test scores or qualifications but skin color. A person who has a low test score and is not qualified for the job will get the job based on skin color.

Really happened. Old news but it helps with my example.

The Supreme Court hears arguments today in a Connecticut firefighters' civil rights case that has the potential to change hiring practices nationwide.

The court will weigh whether New Haven's decision to scrap a promotion exam because too few minorities passed violates the civil rights of top-scoring white applicants.

The discrimination lawsuit was brought by 20 white firefighters — one also is Hispanic.

The city argues going ahead with the promotions based on the test results would have risked a lawsuit claiming the exams had a "disparate impact" on minorities.

A federal appeals court in New York upheld a lower court ruling dismissing the lawsuit.

Business interests worry that a decision in favor of the firefighters would force employers to choose whether to face lawsuits from disgruntled white or minority workers.

The court also issues decisions today.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/04...#ixzz2XIjjmdDn

Should affirmative action also apply to airplane pilots, Doctors, and ship captains of oil tankers and passenger liners??
Where do we draw the line?

Just my thoughts..........

[Docfeelgood]

Some of us are mature and can confront complicated, uncomfortable issues without writing 6 paragraphs of dense politically correct bull****.

THANK YOU!

[Docfeelgood]

I think it's undeniable that black culture is responsible for virtually all of the problems that face black people that aren't simply attributable to poverty. This is not to say that racism doesn't exist or isn't prevalent--merely that it isn't a decisive factor anymore. Consider Asian immigrants--in my opinion, they face racism at least as severe as black people, yet their achievement is stellar. And if we want to control for racism, consider African immigrants. Same skin color, yet they are very overrepresented in academic and economic achievement, despite starting poorer and often not speaking English. Which means that generational poverty has to do with something other than race.

THANK YOU!

[MikeH]

Blacks tend to be repeat offenders. Repeat offenders get higher sentences

That is overly simplistic Wiglaf, your analysis is normally much stronger.

The statistic also holds for first offences, they get higher sentences in plea bargains for the same offence, are more likely to be sentenced as habitual offenders than white offenders with equivalent records.

And there is a well understood 'trial penalty', if you go to trial, plead not guilty you'll get a stronger sentence than if you plead guilty. Not only they are more likely to be found guilty at trial. For which there are a number of potential reasons two of which are bias in the jury and bias in the prosecutors in who they bring to trial (often based on likelihood of conviction, which is really the same thing), but when they are found guilty their 'trial penalty' is harder than equivalent white defendants.

Summary : http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc...ing_review.pdf

This document is quite good at indicating when the studies it quotes are not as rigorous about comparing similar offenders.