Has the "Red Line" been crossed?

[kentonio]

Where do you get this 'weak stance in foreign policy' stuff from? The guy assassinated your most wanted enemy, took military action in Libya, massively increased your countries popularity throughout the world and has generally been a far, far more effective foreign policy president than a domestic one.

[Sava]

I don't get the concern about chemical weapons. Getting carpet bombed scares me a lot more than getting gassed... despite the latter being a horrible death.

[regexcellent]

Where do you get this 'weak stance in foreign policy' stuff from? The guy assassinated your most wanted enemy

you say it like he did it personally. Allowing the assassination of Osama bin Laden (and that's the extent of his involvement, really) is not a brave decision politically or personally, period.

[dannubis]

Yes, but it happened under HIS watch.

[regexcellent]

So?

That said, officers taking undue credit for their subordinates' achievements is a longstanding tradition in the US military.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Mtg is mainly wrong when he says we don't know where the WMD is. Leon Panetta told us in September that we did know. He also said that some small quantities had been moved and we don't know where they went. The vast majority, we know exactly where they are.

September is sooooo, last year. We know where it's normally been, but with bases flipping and continuing combat in Aleppo, it would stand to reason the stuff would move around. Especially if we go after it, because that's ultimately Assad's bootlickers' last bargaining chip for a ticket out.

[DinoDoc]

So?

That said, officers taking undue credit for their subordinates' achievements is a longstanding tradition in the US military.

Who's fault is the fate of Shakil Afridi?

[SlowwHand]

So?

That said, officers taking undue credit for their subordinates' achievements is a longstanding tradition in the US military.

In business of any kind, not just military.

[MichaeltheGreat]

I don't get the concern about chemical weapons. Getting carpet bombed scares me a lot more than getting gassed... despite the latter being a horrible death.

It's a lot easier for a lot more people to use CW on civilian populations. It's not like al Qaeda affiliates are going to go out and by a bunch of surplus Tu-95 Bears from the Russkies so they can carpet bomb US or other cities.

[MichaeltheGreat]

you say it like he did it personally. Allowing the assassination of Osama bin Laden (and that's the extent of his involvement, really) is not a brave decision politically or personally, period.

Do you think George ****in' Washington was personally leading charges up the hill? You're confusing command and leadership. POTUS is not some nugget 2LT. What do you think the political fallout would have been from mission failure? Say, entering Paki airspace without authorization, one bird gets shot down, one forced down, and you have 30 or so KIA plus a few WIA to be put on public trial, and OBL gets away and goes to ground, so the Paki government has "plausible deniability" to coin a phrase?

Walking away from the opportunity would have been the easy political choice - no risk, because the real intel would have remained classified and the peasantry would never have known. I'd say the exact same thing and have the exact same respect for the decision had it been GWB as POTUS.

[PLATO]

September is sooooo, last year. We know where it's normally been, but with bases flipping and continuing combat in Aleppo, it would stand to reason the stuff would move around. Especially if we go after it, because that's ultimately Assad's bootlickers' last bargaining chip for a ticket out.

True...September was a long time ago in respect to these things but,

1.) we are watching these sites
2.) no chemical weapons depots have changed hands
3.) moving the weapons was part of Obama's "red line"

[PLATO]

Do you think George ****in' Washington was personally leading charges up the hill? You're confusing command and leadership. POTUS is not some nugget 2LT. What do you think the political fallout would have been from mission failure? Say, entering Paki airspace without authorization, one bird gets shot down, one forced down, and you have 30 or so KIA plus a few WIA to be put on public trial, and OBL gets away and goes to ground, so the Paki government has "plausible deniability" to coin a phrase?

Walking away from the opportunity would have been the easy political choice - no risk, because the real intel would have remained classified and the peasantry would never have known. I'd say the exact same thing and have the exact same respect for the decision had it been GWB as POTUS.

This is so true. I remember Carter's ill fated rescue attempt. That was the nail in the coffin for any chance he had at re-election.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Who's fault is the fate of Shakil Afridi?

His own. Pakistan used to be part of the British Empire, so it's not like they're unfamiliar with "the great game."

Local agents on the ground (of whatever nationality) potentially getting ****ed is part of the intel business, and has been since before Sun Tzu wrote about it. How many tears are you shedding about Russian, Hungarian, Czech, Vietnamese and German agents "expended" during the cold war? Unless you're a naive buffoon (in which case you have it coming regardless), you know what you're in for.

[PLATO]

It's not like al Qaeda affiliates are going to go out and by a bunch of surplus Tu-95 Bears from the Russkies so they can carpet bomb US or other cities.

But wouldn't you like to see them try!

[MichaeltheGreat]

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True...September was a long time ago in respect to these things but,

1.) we are watching these sites
2.) no chemical weapons depots have changed hands
3.) moving the weapons was part of Obama's "red line"

And, unfortunately, we shared raw KH-11 and KH-12 feeds during the Iran-Iraq war with the Saddamites, so they learned very well how to hide and move stuff. One reason our mobile Scud hunting missions consisted of two to six man teams inserted all over Iraq to do things the old fashioned way while freezing our asses off in unsupportable OPs all over Indian country. 2 gulf war KIA were SF troops dead from exposure in freezing rain, and we had several frostbite amputations and other cold/wet injuries as well.

Having a groundpounders inherent mistrust in the reliability of remote intel, I would assume at some point, some of the Iraqis who we generously shared with back in the 80s made deals with Iranian sponsored groups for protection or other benefits, so our friends in the Revolutionary Guards benefitted from that knowledge, and in turn passed it along to their Alawite butt-buddies in Syria.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if most of the horses are in the barn still, but it would be a surprise.