Has the "Red Line" been crossed?

[Dauphin]

So's your face.

[Sava]

among other things

[regexcellent]

Dauphin's a closet anti-semite

(unless I'm remembering the wrong shakespeare character which is not only possible but likely)

[Sava]

i would never admit to knowing such a fact

[Dauphin]

Dauphin's a closet anti-semite

(unless I'm remembering the wrong shakespeare character which is not only possible but likely)

you have the right one, which is why I found the autocorrect of Sherlock funny.

[DaShi]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/world/...yria-civil-war

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/syria/130320/israel-us-officials-say-chemical-weapons-likely-used-

If Obama is in Israel surely he has access to the intelligence that the Israeli Intelligence chief has in drawing this conclusion. It brings one to the question of "What does Obama consider 'acting accordingly'"?

You are losing a lot of credibility here, Plato. Do you really expect that Obama, on his own during a presidential visit to Israel, would be able to assess the validity of foreign intelligence? Frankly, I've seen nothing here but irrational dislike of Obama over something that he never did. I have a strong feeling that no matter what decision he makes, you will hate it, simply because you hate him.

Plato, you seem like an intelligent person, but you're posting a lot of nonsense in this thread.

[Sava]

plato pretends not to be, but he's out there holding the obama hitler mustache posters with the rest of the crazies

[MichaeltheGreat]

Not me. The Republican leadership is pushing for action...even Carl Levin, Democratic head of the armed services commitee is calling for a no fly zone. Meanwhile John Kerry said on Monday that the administration is still unwilling to provide anything more than non-lethal aid to the rebels.

My concern, as a conservative, is Syria's chemical weapons stockpile. If that is unleashed or becomes unsecure, then the West (and in particular the U.S. because of our capabilities) must act. State Department spokesperson Victoria Nuland said she could not confirm that the chemical weapons were secure.

Given all this, it says to me that the President needs to very seriously considering taking action. It doesn't appear from Kerry's statement that he is...thus the "no balls" comment. I would like to be proven wrong and would be happy if that happened.

First, US military intel assessment so far is that there was no CW use. Israel has an incentive to say otherwise.

Second, who the hell would we actually help? Neither we nor the Israelis have or complete knowledge of where BCW ordnance is stored, so we'd need enough boots on the ground and enough logistical support to essentially occupy the damn country until we sorted it out.

Meanwhile, the Syrian rebels have no unified leadership, and they have all sorts of questionable types, including some apparently like this (Note, if you don't want to see the whole thing, you have plenty of time to stop)

[regexcellent]

Not sure Israel has any reason to take one side or the other right now because while Assad is bad for Israel, whoever replaces him may well be worse and it's looking more likely by the day that the devil we know is better than the one we don't. The folks who are pro-intervention generally take the view that helping topple Assad will allow us to prop up suitable new leaders.

[MichaeltheGreat]

That's worked real well. Israel has no interest in taking sides, they do have an interest in somebody else intervening and spending blood and money trying to manage that quagmire.

25 KIA and a few dozen wounded simply don't make sense as a CW deployment. Worst case, someone grabbed a 120 mortar round or 130 or 152 round out of the wrong case, or the case wasn't properly marked. Which happened in Iraq in '91. That's the trouble with third-world conscript armies. Their staff NCOs are about as well trained as our FNGs, so their FNGs are really abysmal.

[regexcellent]

Well, with a chemical weapons release you'd expect to have tons and tons of sick people but not a whole lot of outright dead people right away I think. Depends on what kind of gas. If it's a nerve agent it oughta kill pretty quick and there ain't much you can do about it.

The other thing about chemical weapons is I really doubt they have very good NBC training (excuse me, CBRN...oh fuck it, it's NBC who gives a shit about this acronym creep). If they even have stuff like MOPP suits they probably don't know how to wear 'em right. Using chemical weapons when you're not trained in defense against the same is pretty hazardous because the wind can blow it right back in your face.

I have worn MOPP gear exactly once and I hope to never ever have to do it again, at least not the ancient 70s and 80s era shit we borrowed from the New York National Guard. God know what kind of utter crap the Syrians have.

[MichaeltheGreat]

They don't have anything except ex-Soviet stuff and that for small cadres of "elite" troops. You can't even get those assclowns to wear their goddamn issue helmets, let alone body armor, because it's not manly.

After I rotated off speedbump duty, I got to see some of the MNF assigned Syrian troops training. Saudi troops and even SANG were fairly decent, Egyptians marginal, and Syrians just ****ing tits on a bull. When they pulled a last minute chicken**** act and got relegated to MNF reserve, nobody objected other than to the slight logistical inconvenience of tucking them out of the way.

MOPP gear sucks, and there's no way around it. Most of the benefit to NBC (I agree, **** the chairborne acronym aces, nuclear encompasses radiological) is the combat effectiveness you achieve by getting the enemy suited up in MOPP gear. Especially in the goddamn dessert or tropical or mountain environments.

[regexcellent]

With the ****ty gas masks we had I was having trouble breathing standing around in a gym. God knows what I would do if I actually had to run in that thing. Also, my boots were ruined by the charcoal. I kid you not nothing would get those damn things clean, not even saddle soap. Not even Hoppes 9.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Yeah, charcoal abrades its way in. Chairborne studies indicate individual combat effectiveness in temperate conditions is reduced by 70% with the MOPP IV. It's more like 90, but that would raise issues with the procurement types. Naturally, since our army operates on a teamwork concept, unit effectiveness is compromised much more than the individual effects. Breathing, fogging, sweating, core overheat and heat injury, loss of balance and mobility, all of crap, for something that may not work in real world conditions.

[PLATO]

You are losing a lot of credibility here, Plato. Do you really expect that Obama, on his own during a presidential visit to Israel, would be able to assess the validity of foreign intelligence? Frankly, I've seen nothing here but irrational dislike of Obama over something that he never did. I have a strong feeling that no matter what decision he makes, you will hate it, simply because you hate him.

Plato, you seem like an intelligent person, but you're posting a lot of nonsense in this thread.

I definately think that The President should have his own evaluation of the intelligence and I am sure that he will get it. I was simply referring to his proximity in Israel. If they do have hard evidence that chem weapons were used, I imagine it would be hard for Obama to act on it while outside Washington (particularly hard while in ME or even moreso in Israel).

I don't hate Obama Dashi, but I do disagree with a lot of his policies. When he does something I agree with, I support him. If you look back over the threads you will see where I have spoken of that support. Obama is MY President and I WANT him to suceed. As a citizen, I don't think I would be doing my duty if I didn't say what I think though (which I do in far more places than this forum).

My concern here is not of an action taken, but of a possible inaction. Syria is deteriorating. I don't think anyone debates that fact. There are various "groups" involved in the opposition...some that are somewhat western friendly and some that are not. When the country falls, someone is going to gain control of the WMD. We don't know who that will be.

Mtg is mainly wrong when he says we don't know where the WMD is. Leon Panetta told us in September that we did know. He also said that some small quantities had been moved and we don't know where they went. The vast majority, we know exactly where they are.

I don't think this is a "Western" Issue. I think it is a UNSC issue, but SOMEONE needs to act to secure these weapons now. Ideally, I would like to see Assad invite the Russians in to do it, but I think he has not fully made the decision not to use them. Absent a UNSC resolution, I think it is a matter of self defense and capable countries should act. Most likely, the U.S. is the only country that could successfully do this with opposition from the Syrian government.

Do we need to wait for wholesale use of chemical weapons before we act? Do we need to wait until some fall into the hands of the rebels before we act? This is to important an issue to let it sit idly by. President Obama drew a "red line" which may or may not have been crossed. For the sake of making sure these wmd are secure, he should err on the side of action. My impression is that he will err on the side of inaction. Thus my "criticism in advance" is not a hatred of Obama, but an attempt to put focus on what I perceive is a weak stance in foriegn policy...one that could have severe consequences.