What is the point of owning guns?

[Aeson]

China is managing.

If Reg lived in China that could be construed as an applicable response ... but he'd still be out of luck even with a shotgun.

[Lonestar]

al Awlaki forfeited his right to civilian due process by being a member of an unlawful combatant organization killed on a battlefield. If he was concerned about his ****ing due process rights as a US citizen, then maybe he should have turned himself in to the US embassy. He waged war against the US as part of an unlawful combatant organization, so **** him.

I'll bet you a nickel that we've killed more than one US citizen with targeted attacks with drone.

It's something that's been accepted as the new normal.

And it's not "indefinite" detention. It's only detention for as long as al Qaeda considers itself in a state of war against the US. The alternative, which is perfectly legal, is to have military tribunals try them in the field and have them shot thereafter. Just ask Manfred Pernass, Günther Billing, and Gefreiter Wilhelm Schmidt how that process works.

Great, but we haven't been exactly expeditious with military tribunals either.

And the reason why it's considered indefinite is because al Qaeda is a non-state actor, so it isn't as if at some point someone will be signing the articles of surrender on the USS Missouri. Some True Believer will always just take over the top spot.

If this mentality had been common in the late 1700s, we'd all be speaking French and the barbary pirates would be operating in Chesapeake Bay.

The US military in the early 21st Century is the most powerful in the world. As the quality of our external threats decrease, we shouldn't be taking actions that are ethically dubious. We really do have that luxury.

[MichaeltheGreat]

I'll bet you a nickel that we've killed more than one US citizen with targeted attacks with drone.

It's something that's been accepted as the new normal.

How many of 'em have been killed in shopping malls in Minneapolis? If they're in the field with al Qaeda, then the more the merrier. Any who are concerned about their "rights" can come in and talk to the embassy. The only difference is the technology, otherwise, it's consistent with US doctrine forever. What would you do, ask the Yemeni government for permission to send a couple of deputy US Marshalls to serve a warrant? Ask nicely? al Awlaki, Gadahn, Lind et al chose to go overseas to join an unlawful combatant organization engaged in acts of war against the US. Lind was captured, he got his due process rights, now he gets three hots and a cot. al Awlaki didn't manage to get captured, and he didn't surrender. It doesn't matter if it's a hellfire through his car's windshield, or three .223 rounds in the chest. He's covered under the laws of war, not civilian due process. If he's taken prisoner or surrendered, it's another story. Then he gets his fair trial and strapped to a gurney in Terre Haute as a traitor.

Great, but we haven't been exactly expeditious with military tribunals either.

I agree, we should. But the end result will be life sentences or a quick trip to Allah.

And the reason why it's considered indefinite is because al Qaeda is a non-state actor, so it isn't as if at some point someone will be signing the articles of surrender on the USS Missouri. Some True Believer will always just take over the top spot.

So were the Barbary pirates and for that matter, the Habr Gidr. They picked the wrong fight.

The US military in the early 21st Century is the most powerful in the world. As the quality of our external threats decrease, we shouldn't be taking actions that are ethically dubious. We really do have that luxury.[/QUOTE]

I'll agree with you to the extent of things like invading recognized countries a la Iraq. Going after al Qaeda and their affiliates in overseas combat actions (including drone strikes) is another thing. I mean, golly gee gosh, we violated Pakistani sovereignty when we went and killed bin Laden. We should never have done that. We don't live in a clean world, where our sworn enemies wear uniforms and operate under national authority.

[molly bloom]

And your point is what? America is not South Africa.

You mean that they didn't both have governments and societies which discriminated against people on the basis of their skin colour and ethnicity ?

That there weren't descendants of black Africans who could pass for white thanks to miscegenation in both countries ? I'm shocked and stunned.

What is this 'common sense' that invalidates the US census and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission?

Wow. I don't agree with the U.S. Census or the E.E.O.C. . I may cry.

The 'common sense' of systematic European racism and Islamophobia?

Yeah, that must be it. Just let me get comfortable in my white hood, it slipped down while I was whipping my next door neighbour.

We're just outsiders who don't belong to you?

Yep- Auslanders the lot of you.

Bunch of filthy Lebs and Asians?

Don't be so hard on yourself. I'm sure some of the brown skin colour must be from melanin, not dirt. But hey- it's no skin off my whiter than white freckle and sunburn prone nose.

If you want to think of yourself as a standard bearer for the racial nonsense of the Third Reich, be my guest...

Enthusiastic Arab crowd from 'Triumph Of The Will' :

[kentonio]

So were the Barbary pirates and for that matter, the Habr Gidr. They picked the wrong fight.

I agree with basically everything you've said in this thread, but you really think the Habr Gidr picked the wrong fight? Against the US?

[molly bloom]

Last saturday I fired 100 shells of birdshot.

Didja hit a little tweety bird ?

[Dinner]

I have to confess. Every time I see Straybow, I think Strongbow, as in the rather dry English hard cider. I know, it is my internal lush.

[DinoDoc]

I'm familiar with the issue.

Then perhaps you could enlighten me what other purpose a registry of guns would have other than to facilitate exactly these kind of shenanigans?

[kentonio]

What's the point of owning guns? Ask Earl Bailey.

62-Year-Old With Gun Only One Standing Between Nation And Full-Scale Government Takeover

NORFOLK, VA—According to numerous reports, local 62-year-old Earl Bailey, who owns a shotgun and several boxes of ammunition, is currently the last bastion of defense between the United States of America and the federal government’s plot of a full-scale takeover.

Bailey, a recent retiree and a proud advocate of gun rights, has been confirmed by multiple sources as being a true patriot, and is, at present, the only person capable of preventing top-secret forces within the government from striking and forcefully coercing hundreds of millions of Americans to submit to a fascist and brutal New World Order.

Since the early 1990s, sources estimated the gun owner has staved off innumerable large-scale government threats, all from the center of his 12-acre ranch.

“It is every American’s right to be good and armed, and that’s a right that should always be protected,” said Bailey, now the sole American protecting the nation from the government’s hidden plot of disarming all citizens, gradually gaining control of the mass media, and installing martial law throughout the nation’s streets. “Our Founding Fathers intended for each and every one of us to protect ourselves from tyranny. That’s what America is all about.”

“What happens when the feds show up at your front door and start telling you how much meat you can eat or how to raise your kids?” continued the lifetime NRA member, brandishing the very weapon that now serves as the final hope of staving off a totalitarian state. “Is that the future you want?”

Bailey, who keeps his gun on his person at all times and regularly patrols his property in his truck, has reportedly struck dread into the very highest-ranking members of the U.S. government. According to sources, top government and military officials are fully aware that they remain unable to commence with their oppressive, systematic subjugation of the American populace as long as the 62-year-old owner of a rifle exists.

Additional reports confirmed that Bailey’s frequent practice of shooting his gun at empty bean cans in his backyard has repeatedly forced government officials to reassess both their ground and air strategies for the impending takeover.

“The way I see it, the Second Amendment’s been keeping this nation free and secure for well over 200 years,” Bailey said, valiantly standing in front of his home that is constantly being monitored by CIA agents and elite Special Forces operatives, who are told to maintain a safe distance from the formidable 62-year-old. “First they’ll come for our guns and next…well, shoot, I don’t really plan on ever seeing what the hell happens next.”

While the federal government is more than adequately prepared to begin the first phase of its plan of convoying Second Amendment adherents to newly established FEMA concentration camps, high-level members of the Obama Administration involved in the widespread conspiracy confirmed that they have been forced to resort to alternate methods due solely to Bailey’s heroics.

“As long as there’s someone like Earl out there with a gun and ammunition, we are unable to carry out our attack on America,” said Maxwell Caufield, a covert military leader in charge of the operation to turn the country into an authoritarian, one-party state wherein the basic rights of citizens are stripped away in order to create total government control. “Try as we did to spread our distorted gun control propaganda—claiming that it would protect innocent people across the country from needless deaths—the man just wouldn’t bite. There is simply nothing we can do about Earl and his gun, damn him.”

“You’ve got to hand it to him, really,” Caufield added. “If it weren’t for Earl, you’d be looking at a totally different country.”

[OneFootInTheGrave]

The point: In the unlikely event that you get an urge to start killing people - you can do it easier, do not have to exercise eight hours a day for months to be able to knife a dozen people before getting aprehended, after all it is your right to have an easy method of killing if the need arises.

Fries, Burgers and guns

Vegetables, exercise and knives

Being free to do what you want to do without months of preparation in advance. Freedom!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Then perhaps you could enlighten me what other purpose a registry of guns would have other than to facilitate exactly these kind of shenanigans?

Pretty much the same thing as a registry of cars, separate from the personal property taxation aspect. To provide a means of authenticating legal transfers, as opposed to say, off the books cash and carry transfers to felons or the diagnosed severely mentally ill. Registration databases should be law enforcement only, and if you don't like liberal or corrupt cities, you could always make it maintained only by the feds, and local law enforcement can only get an extract of info, like the cop who pulls you over and runs your plates.

Example, you bust a tweak dealer, he has a cache of 50 weapons, you run them, and find a dozen trace back to the same owner. Either said owner failed to report a pretty significant robbery, or you have a proxy buyer.

With all the right wing bull**** and distortion as to what Fast and Furious actually was (hint, no government agents actually bought a single weapon, nor did they transfer a single weapon to anyone), it was obviously clear to anyone except a couple of stupid Federal judges that there were massive proxy buys and transfers to criminals. In other words, it provides a means to enforce prospective laws against transfers to unvetted parties.

The other thing I'd couple with that is a license system, just like drivers licenses. A driver's license doesn't mean you own ten cars. It means you've been legally vetted to drive a car. Of course, it would get the NRA NWO Agenda21 Black Helicopter crowd in a tizzy, but an encrypted, secure, swipable card would expedite background checks. If you wanted to avoid the potential shakedown of requiring all private transactions to be cleared by an FFL dealer, you could make the card readable by a device like a Square that attaches to a smartphone. Private commercial transactions can be secured, there's no reason a background check transaction can't be.

[regexcellent]

For all of you making a car analogy, you only need to register your car and get a license to drive it and so forth in order to use it on public roads. You can drive it to your heart's content on your own property without a license (at least in most states, perhaps not all).

Licensing for driving is more equivalent to licensing for concealed carry.

[BlackCat]

For all of you making a car analogy, you only need to register your car and get a license to drive it and so forth in order to use it on public roads. You can drive it to your heart's content on your own property without a license (at least in most states, perhaps not all).

Licensing for driving is more equivalent to licensing for concealed carry.

I really don't think that you are allowed to drive a concealed car, so no.

[regexcellent]

Concealed carry permits are what allow you to carry a loaded firearm around in public areas. Driver's licenses let you operate a car on public roads.

[BlackCat]

Concealed carry permits are what allow you to carry a loaded firearm around in public areas. Driver's licenses let you operate a car on public roads.

CCW allows you to carry a consealed weapon, a driving license doesn't allow you to drive a concealed car. So no, they aren't comparable.