Who are American politicians beholden to? The People? The Constitution?

[Sava]

No, we "bleat" about how sad life on welfare is, and how sad the Dumbocrats and liberals are continually trying to make life easier for the shiftless and layabouts.

Food stamps gives you $3 a day to eat.

you are a ****ing piece of ****

[Straybow]

I have a friend who gets food stamps for his two kids, $550/mo. That's more like $3 per meal. And if you cook your own food that's reasonable. I've lived on that kind of budget for several years.

[molly bloom]

If you parse carefully you will see that I confused Liberal for Labour, and Labour amounts to the same thing as the two gents you mentioned.

I've read what you posted- you made vague assertion about Churchill which were wrong. You made other vague assertions about unspecified wealthy people, unsupported by any evidence. The remark I made about Lansbury and Owen was me being sarcastic- had you known about either of them in any detail, you wouldn't be making such ludicrous remarks about British history.

With that my point was, and remains, solidly intact: many who were made well-to-do or even rich by the industrial revolution fought against its abuses.

That remains an unsupported opinion. The reason that people like Robert Owen and the Quaker philanthropists like the Cadburys stand out and are remembered, is that they were the exceptions:

Many ideas expressed by Robert Owen (1771-1858) remain amazingly relevant and topical today. The international cultural influence of his campaign for a better and fairer society is one of the criteria by which New Lanark was assessed by UNESCO as being worthy of World Heritage Status. A selection of extracts from Owen’s published works follows.

http://www.newlanark.org/robertowen.shtml

The Cadburys :

A new factory, planned by George, was built on the site, and the area became known as Bournville, after the small stream that runs through the site.



George Cadbury believed human beings should be treated equally
George was driven by a passion for social reform and wanted to provide good quality low cost homes for his workers in a healthy environment - giving an alternative to grimy city life. So he set about building a village where his workers could live.

George said of his plans: "If each man could have his own house, a large garden to cultivate and healthy surroundings - then, I thought, there will be for them a better opportunity of a happy family life."

His aim was that one-tenth of the Bournville estate should be "laid out and used as parks, recreation grounds and open space."

The brothers set new standards for working and living conditions in Victorian Britain and the Cadbury plant in Bournville became known as "the factory in a garden".

George continued to provided better working conditions for employees, setting up workers committees and providing facilities.

Over the years George invested a lot of his money in businesses which placed a high priority on the welfare of the workers and despite running a large company he also dedicated a lot of time to helping those less privileged in his local community.

George gave the Bournville estate to the Bournville Village Trust in 1901. The trust was founded, to administer and develop the village and its surroundings.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/birmingham/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8412000/8412655.stm

Yes, socialists of whatever class do not necessarily lack intelligence, they just lack its use.

Pathetic and irrelevant opinion- never heard of the Workers Educational Association, or Ruskin College ? Well, obviously not.

Then I'd have sympathy for his case.

Figures. Never heard of Niemoller either....

I'd bet almost every major European city had a vibrant Greek community he could join.

Then you'd lose. There's also a difference between preparing and choosing to emigrate, and being forced into exile.

And, again, I'm just...

Showing how little you know of British and European history. I know, it's obvious.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Figures. Never heard of Niemoller either....

To jump in for a second... Stray, Niemoller is a Christian, FWIW

Then you'd lose. There's also a difference between preparing and choosing to emigrate, and being forced into exile.

Just ask the Jewish people .

[Straybow]

Does your Neimoller argument count as Godwin by proxy?

I've read what you posted- you made vague assertion about Churchill which were wrong. You made other vague assertions about unspecified wealthy people, unsupported by any evidence.

Then you read more into it than I wrote.

Men like Winston Churchill grew up in privilege afforded by the wealth of the industrial revolution and fought for better working conditions, women's suffrage, etc. He's the one who said if you're twenty and not a liberal you haven't a heart, and if you're forty and not a conservative you haven't a brain.

My point was that wealthy people like him did enact the social reforms. He had the sense to leave the left once he recognized their political aims were Marxist rather than just reformative. Not being a citizen of the Commonwealth I never bothered with the who's who of British political parties and lumped the Liberals and Labour together. My bad.

That remains an unsupported opinion. The reason that people like Robert Owen and the Quaker philanthropists like the Cadburys stand out and are remembered, is that they were the exceptions:

I never said they weren't exceptions. My point was that they were there, thank you. If MPs and Lords made wealthy in the industrial revolution didn't vote for it there wouldn't have been suffrage and work reform for decades.

Thanks for the links, they were a good read. In the US we had mill owners building schools and hospitals in the early 1800s. That ultimate robber baron, Carnegie, used his hundreds of millions to build hundreds of public libraries and a university you might have heard about. That eeevil capitalist Ford cut his workers hours and doubled their already above industry average pay.

Pathetic and irrelevant opinion- never heard of the Workers Educational Association, or Ruskin College ? Well, obviously not.

Who cares? Schools only show one side of intelligence. That they continually play the part of Lenin's Useful Idiots shows they don't use it all too well.

Then you'd lose. There's also a difference between preparing and choosing to emigrate, and being forced into exile.

So the compassion of the European progressives only extendeds to their own poor, and not to the Greek refugees of the junta? Sorry, I forget how ethnically insular and prejudiced Europe can be, since they're always talking about how much better they are than eeevil racist USA.

People who escaped from the Eastern Bloc often had nothing but the clothes on their back. But somehow you think this guy had it worse because he was escaping from a right wing military junta you hate instead of commies you love.

Showing how little you know of British and European history. I know, it's obvious.

Well, not being a leftist I never studied up on the details of labor movements. Speaking of European history, who started the Greek Civil War? Oh, it was the Greek Communist Party against the freely elected and recognized coalition government. There could have been peace and prosperity after the Germans were kicked out, and probably no right wing junta two decades later to persecute that nice gentleman. They'd have something better than a third world economy today.

[kentonio]

So the compassion of the European progressives only extendeds to their own poor, and not to the Greek refugees of the junta? Sorry, I forget how ethnically insular and prejudiced Europe can be, since they're always talking about how much better they are than eeevil racist USA.

It's pretty hilarious to watch you trying to paint Europeans as lacking compassion when you're quite happy to **** over your own fellow citizens at any turn to save a buck. As for insular and prejudice, try asking an American Muslim how tolerant and inclusive they think America has been this last decade.

People who escaped from the Eastern Bloc often had nothing but the clothes on their back. But somehow you think this guy had it worse because he was escaping from a right wing military junta you hate instead of commies you love.

You are literally too stupid to be alive.

Well, not being a leftist I never studied up on the details of labor movements.

You never bothered studying something, but like a real American you still think you know enough to make ridiculous sweeping statements that have no basis in reality. As a nation you're so pathetically conditioned to react with hostility to anything related to socialism or communism that it's like watching Pavlov's Dog.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Woof

[kentonio]

'real American' was supposed to be 'Real American'(tm) btw. Apologies to the Americans who aren't certifiably insane.

[MichaeltheGreat]

That would be "real Amurkin(tm)"

[kentonio]

[kentonio]

On second thoughts, needs more eagles..

[PLATO]

That would be "real Amurkin(tm)"

Or just "mur ah kans" in the South. The A is silent down here and the "ah" is obligatory.

[Straybow]

It's pretty hilarious to watch you trying to paint Europeans as lacking compassion when you're quite happy to **** over your own fellow citizens at any turn to save a buck. As for insular and prejudice, try asking an American Muslim how tolerant and inclusive they think America has been this last decade.

Muslims in America get treated quite a bit better than in France. They can shoot up a military post while shouting Alahu Akbar and don't even get charged with terrorism or shipped off to Gitmo.

You are literally too stupid to be alive.

Thank you for demonstrating your socialist compassion and reasoning capacity so clearly. And thank God you're in no position to act on it as your Communist brethren were across half of Europe to two generations of victims.

You never bothered studying something, but like a real American you still think you know enough to make ridiculous sweeping statements that have no basis in reality. As a nation you're so pathetically conditioned to react with hostility to anything related to socialism or communism that it's like watching Pavlov's Dog.

Who did what bit in some country other than your own isn't that important unless you're interested for some other reason. I wouldn't expect a Brit to know that much detail about American history.

No, as a nation, half to three quarters of our population has been conditioned by the media and socialist educators so that they think nothing of the destructiveness of socialist ideology, as you have. The cool-aide drinkers are still wondering why insurance rates have gone up when Obama promised they'd go down. I never bought into their bull, recognizing in grade school that they weren't telling the whole story whenever they waxed eloquent and starry-eyed about social and political activism. And, no, my upbringing was apolitical. I didn't even know if my parents belonged to political party(s) until Jimmy Carter came along (my Dad had been a Democrat up to then).

The first time I read Robespierre and Rousseau I thought surely nobody was stupid enough to believe their crap. Then the history book explained that these guys are the ideology behind the French Revolution. It was a pleasant irony that the Revolution turned on Robespierre and sent him to the guillotine.

Look at the difference in character between the American and French Revolutions, and the Commies who've followed. You libs love to decry the evils of unbridled capitalism, which was at worst negligent, then downplay the deliberate deprivations, tortures, and attrocities inflicted under the many names of socialism. It isn't Pavlovian. It is both cold, hard, logical rejection of the empty philosophy and deep emotional repulsion of the results born of that philosophy.

[Sava]

I don't know why, but I find the whole bipolar Fox News ideology to be hilarious. It's one of my favorite kinds of mental retardation.

Can you imagine the look on Straybows face the day he figures out there are more than two political ideology's?

[kentonio]

Look at the difference in character between the American and French Revolutions, and the Commies who've followed. You libs love to decry the evils of unbridled capitalism, which was at worst negligent, then downplay the deliberate deprivations, tortures, and attrocities inflicted under the many names of socialism. It isn't Pavlovian. It is both cold, hard, logical rejection of the empty philosophy and deep emotional repulsion of the results born of that philosophy.

I'm not a pure socialist, you dip****, I'm a UK conservative. The fact that you can't tell the difference shows exactly how polarizing the word 'socialism' is to far too many Americans. All our western societies are a mix of capitalism and socialism, the only question is what the balance between the two should be. Most of us realize that that balance is necessary, because anyone who claims a pure socialist or pure capitalist society is ideal is criminally naive.