The Impossible has Happened!

[Jon Miller]

We find damage from it all the time, usually many years after the damage was done.

Additionally, we find that the criminal continued during all that time without being caught, punished, or changing his/her behavior.

Since we usually only find 'terrible' offenders, ones who do a lot of damage to many individuals... it is obvious that the problem is pervasive enough to not ignore and that action should be taken to minimize the chance that offenders will be able to damage many individuals. This means severe punishment when caught (which is unlikely) rather than a slap on the wrist and a hope that the offender learns not to repeat his/her behavior.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Three people very close to me come form sexually abusive homes. They had friends at school who also had been abused (not always informing authorities).

I would go so far as to say that most cases of sexual abuse are not brought before an officer of the law.

Sexual abuse of kids is prevalent in (subsets of) american society (at least), and I think this is true of other societies as well.

JM
(I didn't really have close friends until college (after grade school), which is why I use my siblings and not myself.)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I'm betting the problem is twice as prevalent as you'ld expect.

[Jon Miller]

You are being an idiot.

I have relatives and my SO has relatives who are involved in this (both as victims and as part of the state).

Scholarly evidence says 28% for girls, which definitely could be considered prevalent. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...45213483900650

http://archive.acf.hhs.gov/programs/.../cm10/cm10.pdf Considering the number of cases which I personally know of which were not reported, I am suspicous that the government numbers based upon cases that officials dealt with will underpresent the problem.

http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/factsheet/pdf/CSA-FS20.pdf This gives 9-29%.

If I, and most people I know (from many walks of life) know many others who were abused, this means that abuse is prevalent and not just a few rare cases.

There are a lot of sick, screwed up people out there.

JM
(I believe one of the things that is likely to make you abuse (sexually or otherwise) a child is to be abused yourself. In this way it goes down generations in families...)

[MRT144]

Indeed: 11-Year-Old Gang Rape Victim Accused Of Being Seductive Men-Luring Spider By Lawyer

Defense lawyers...

[snoopy369]

I don't think anyone who read the original article (not the OP's article, but the one it was discussing) would say it had anything to do with a slap on the wrist. It argued for effective treatment, and in order to do that you have to understand the cause. One of the points of the article is that, let's say you mandate a 5 year jail sentence. 10 year. Whatever. If this is an issue of innate sexual preference, and not simply choice, then the length of the sentence is irrelevant - the person will still be a pedophile. The only thing you CAN do is teach them to control their urges and not abuse again; and current jail terms aren't doing that - they're probably exacerbating the psychological issues that might be present, and creating new ones, given the treatment child molesters receive in prison. So current policies are actually harmful, in that they very likely encourage recidivism rather than discouraging it.

[Krill]

Snoopy, you've completely misunderstood the Fox article.

[Krill]

First of all Snoopy, the OP writer is a Psychiatrist, so if you are going to ignore and ridicule his experience at least acknowledge what experience he has.

The centre point of this discussion is fairly straightforward, how to treat Paedophiles, and the point is that there is new research trying to discover if it is an "orientation" that can't be changed. Ablow points out that a person sexual orientation develops during childhood, which is true to an extent, so whichever way you slice it the idea that all paedophiles are 100% "incurable" at birth is a moot point: paedophilic tendencies can and will develop in some members of society for whatever reason.

Sadly, pedophiles who won’t accept responsibility for their actions may be inappropriately seeking to “benefit” from the advances won by the gay rights movement, because that movement has asserted that homosexual behavior is pre-programmed into babies, just as heterosexual behavior is. The unscientific and rote intolerance on the part of some gay rights groups for the idea that life experience can also shape sexual orientation (that sexual orientation is fluid) plants the seeds for the same insistence by those who would prey upon children

This pretty much explains the situation of a small proportion of paedophiles, those that refuse to accept responsibility for their actions. There are those members of society that do refuse to take responsibility for the actions resulting from their desires, and it is this group that is such a huge danger. Jefferson notes that we should try to help Paedophiles to cope with their desires: fine, but the risk to defenceless members of society is so extreme that this situation would require a lot of thought to get right. Ultimately a lot of people will come down on the side that children get defended first so it's acceptable to force treatment, but if there isn't any treatment, might as well lock them up anyway. And that is why we don't provide preventative treatment or helpline, if we find a paedophile we lock them up for protection of society and then we try to treat them when society is protected.

[Jon Miller]

Actually, in the US I don't think we lock up pedophiles unless they are criminals (engage in pedophilia activity).

Additionally, we don't throw away the key either. Although we do try to monitor (which is difficult, and we definitely don't do a great job) when those who have been criminals are released.

This (in general) makes sense to me.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I wouldn't be adverse to treatment centers and hotlines, if that might help.

I just think that we do need to keep a strong reaction to pedophile actions and a strong punishment of pedophile actions.

There has already been a push (along the orientation line) that pedophile activity shouldn't be reacted against strongly. This is often linked with weak punishment. At least in a society which still believes in punishment (which the US does, I recognize that some european states do not).

JM

[Krill]

Actually, in the US I don't think we lock up pedophiles unless they are criminals (engage in pedophilia activity).

You only find Paedophiles after they have committed a crime though, so you lock them up afterwards as a punitive measure. Jeffersons point is that locking them up isn't effective treatment, he ignores the safety aspect.

Additionally, we don't throw away the key either. Although we do try to monitor (which is difficult, and we definitely don't do a great job) when those who have been criminals are released.

Same in most western countries.

[notyoueither]

Why not one adult and a horse, then? Or three adults?

A horse is not capable of consent, and there's nothing wrong with three adults entering into a relationship where all give informed, enthusiastic consent.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

First of all Snoopy, the OP writer is a Psychiatrist, so if you are going to ignore and ridicule his experience at least acknowledge what experience he has.

The centre point of this discussion is fairly straightforward, how to treat Paedophiles, and the point is that there is new research trying to discover if it is an "orientation" that can't be changed. Ablow points out that a person sexual orientation develops during childhood, which is true to an extent, so whichever way you slice it the idea that all paedophiles are 100% "incurable" at birth is a moot point: paedophilic tendencies can and will develop in some members of society for whatever reason.



This pretty much explains the situation of a small proportion of paedophiles, those that refuse to accept responsibility for their actions. There are those members of society that do refuse to take responsibility for the actions resulting from their desires, and it is this group that is such a huge danger. Jefferson notes that we should try to help Paedophiles to cope with their desires: fine, but the risk to defenceless members of society is so extreme that this situation would require a lot of thought to get right. Ultimately a lot of people will come down on the side that children get defended first so it's acceptable to force treatment, but if there isn't any treatment, might as well lock them up anyway. And that is why we don't provide preventative treatment or helpline, if we find a paedophile we lock them up for protection of society and then we try to treat them when society is protected.

Correct, this is how it should be and instead of filling up prisons with people who use recreational drugs, they should be filling them up with those who are a real danger to other members of society. Peadophiles fit - no executions, with just locking them up for life and giving them the lifeline to prove that they are actually not peadophiles, in some cases where people will be wrongly accused. However for confirmed cases - locking up for life is the correct answer, perhaps some more advanced institutions where they can self-organize in some locked up environment, but definitely not with access to regular society with kids as there is way too much abuse in it already on those terms.

Throwing away the key should be the default position (unless wrongful charges are proven along one day), as recovery in such cases is very hard/ possibly impossible because of the nature of the urges, the relative ease they can re-offend in general society, coupled with the actual damage that they do - the case is very clear for me to just throw away the key.

[Alexander's Horse]

I watched a bit of Fox in Guam last w/e. Since the election they do seem to be moving a bit more to the centre, and trying to drag the repubs with them.

They were even spruiking new jobs, after claiming all through the election that there weren't any.

[onodera]

A horse is not capable of consent, and there's nothing wrong with three adults entering into a relationship where all give informed, enthusiastic consent.

As one American horse****er said, "sure she is capable of consent. If she doesn't like it, she'll kick the **** out of you".