So about that abortion thing..

[Hauldren Collider]

For completeness, they should also study the health consequences of abortion for fetuses.

[MikeH]

And the quality of life for unwanted babies who are born.

[Hauldren Collider]

And the quality of life for unwanted babies who are born.

So it's better that they not live at all than POSSIBLY have a higher chance of living a lower-class life? I don't see all the poor people jumping off bridges, so what the **** makes you think you have the right to make that decision for them?

[Kuciwalker]

Some Euros on here may not fully understand the depravity of the pro-abortion movement in the US, because they tend to have much more sensible laws. In the US there is a legal right to an abortion up until (more or less) the moment of birth. The only abortion procedure that's actually illegal in the US is partial-birth abortion.

Do you think there's a meaningful moral difference between killing a baby one day before birth vs. one day after? I hope not. The act of coming out of a vagina has no more metaphysical significance than the original fertilization. Both are stupid places to draw the line.

[MikeH]

I clearly don't have the right to decide that for anyone. Nor do you.

I think mothers should have the right to choose that - after all it's them who will live with the consequences of that decision not me.

[Hauldren Collider]

I clearly don't have the right to decide that for anyone. Nor do you.

I think mothers should have the right to choose that - after all it's them who will live with the consequences of that decision not me.

And it is the child who has to die with it.

[MikeH]

Some Euros on here may not fully understand the depravity of the pro-abortion movement in the US, because they tend to have much more sensible laws. In the US there is a legal right to an abortion up until (more or less) the moment of birth. The only abortion procedure that's actually illegal in the US is partial-birth abortion.

Do you think there's a meaningful moral difference between killing a baby one day before birth vs. one day after? I hope not. The act of coming out of a vagina has no more metaphysical significance than the original fertilization. Both are stupid places to draw the line.

I've said before that both extremist positions in the US are unreasonable.

The only reasonable position is that there are certain cases where it should clearly be allowed - even if it the only case you support is where the baby is braindead and the mother's life is in danger.

The real debate is about trying to use as much data as you can to work out where you draw the line.

[Jon Miller]

The child also has to live (or not live) with the consequences.

I know people who were raped/abused/etc as babies/young children.

They are glad to be alive and would say they have a good life.

Just like there is a advocate selected for children below the age of 18 in our legal system, there should be an advocate selected for children below the age of 18 in our medical system. Yes, the advocate may sometimes decide that abortion is OK (for example, if the child is not viable or if there is significant medical risks).

JM

[MikeH]

And it is the child who has to die with it.

Foetus != child

And I have a child. I fully comprehend the magnitude of such a decision.

[Kuciwalker]

I've said before that both extremist positions in the US are unreasonable.

What I've described isn't an "extremist" position in the US. It is the mainstream position of the pro-abortion movement. Pro-abortion groups fought tooth-and-nail against even the laws banning partial birth abortions.

[Hauldren Collider]

I've said before that both extremist positions in the US are unreasonable.

The only reasonable position is that there are certain cases where it should clearly be allowed - even if it the only case you support is where the baby is braindead and the mother's life is in danger.

The real debate is about trying to use as much data as you can to work out where you draw the line.

MikeH, the pro-abortion movement in the US believes in an affirmative right to an abortion, as inalienable and expansive as the right to free speech. Groups like Planned Parenthood vigorously oppose any curtailing of any abortion rights at all. The Democratic Party leadership largely agrees with this standpoint, and they avoid talking about it as much as the Republicans (should) try to avoid talking about theirs.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I fully comprehend the magnitude of such a decision.

Doubtful for the same reason you espouse nonempathy with the woman's POV.

[kentonio]

Some Euros on here may not fully understand the depravity of the pro-abortion movement in the US, because they tend to have much more sensible laws.

What I've described isn't an "extremist" position in the US. It is the mainstream position of the pro-abortion movement. Pro-abortion groups fought tooth-and-nail against even the laws banning partial birth abortions.

I think you may not understand the reason why pro-choice groups in the US are so unwilling to give ground at all on the issue. When you set out a stall that all abortion should be banned and refuse to shift on that position no matter what, pro-choice people are left feeling that any ground they cede is simply a step towards a total ban. If you argue from an extreme position then you can hardly critisize your opponents for feeling the need to do the same.

Over here we have time limits which can only be passed in cases of health issues to the mother/fetus etc, and there is currently a debate about lowering the time limit coming from the more religious aspects of our government. Because neither side demands a total ban/complete freedom to access, we can have that debate in a grown up way.

[Kuciwalker]

Oh, I understand completely that they are afraid of a slippery slope; that doesn't make them any less evil! As you describe it, they are literally murdering babies for their political ends.

[giblets]

You do not have to be female to have an opinion on abortion, Jrabbit. What a ridiculous notion.

In fact, to believe that you do, you have to ASSUME the position of the pro-abortion group: That it is about women's rights, and not the rights of the child. You're basically trying to end the debate by saying "la la la la".

Assuming that this issue concerns women's rights is a far less dubious assumption than assuming a human embryo is a person and therefore entitled to protection by the state.