This just in: Israel returns fire on Syrian targets from the Golan Heights

[Zevico]

I just don't see how the inevitable results of firing rockets at Israel are supposed to make Hamas more popular among the inhabitants of Gaza.

Because the people of Gaza have a different upbringing from you, involving differing life experiences. At your church the local pastor says to be kind, respect others and do unto others as they do to you. At your school they tell you that people of different religions and backgrounds deserve respect. And they do. That's all fine as far as it goes.

In Gazan schools, people get taught that the West and Israel are to blame for every evil in the world. If you were facing an onslaught against a cosmic evil, then the casualties sustained in a war against that cosmic evil would be relatively unimportant compared to the fact that you were fighting it and therefore weakening the enemy. Ergo what's important to Hamas is that it is seen to be doing more fighting than anyone else. It's how they won power in the first place. And they want to make sure that a new generation of Palestinians accept that same logic to ensure their continued rule.

Recall that this holds true even of Fatah. What is Fatah's armed wing called? The Al Aqsa Martyr's brigade. The name is deliberately chosen for its Islamic significance and undertones of a holy war. It's why they began the Intifida, which they had planned months in advance, as their Information Minister openly admitted in Arabic--to seize back popular momentum from Hamas.

I suggest that the mistake you make is to believe that Gazans hold material things to be important to them as much as Westerners do. They don't. They take a leaf from Khomeini, who explained that the Iranian (Islamist) revolution was not about the "price of watermelons", but holy struggle.

It's not that Hamas as an organisation of men must be seen in high regard as such, but they must be seen as carrying on the struggle against the West in a country whose people can only conceive themselves in terms that are antagonistic towards it. In that context, when people conclude that Hamas isn't doing a good enough job they turn to more austere and fanatical alternatives. Put simply, they have no other way of explaining how the world works other than within this political-theological framework of divine struggle. Hamas makes sure of that.

By contrast in the West there are competing explanations for how the world works. We accept or discard these explanations as best we can but we allow them to compete and exist. In Gaza, people who disagree with Hamas' explanations, like Fatah, got thrown out of buildings and shot in hospitals for their trouble back in the days of Hamas' coup. Even before the coup the only competing explanation on offer was an anti-Western nationalist-socialist fairy tale with Islamic overtones pushed by Fatah.

[SlowwHand]

Very well-said.

[dannubis]

Because the people of Gaza have a different upbringing from you, involving differing life experiences. At your church the local pastor says to be kind, respect others and do unto others as they do to you. At your school they tell you that people of different religions and backgrounds deserve respect. And they do. That's all fine as far as it goes.

In Gazan schools, people get taught that the West and Israel are to blame for every evil in the world. If you were facing an onslaught against a cosmic evil, then the casualties sustained in a war against that cosmic evil would be relatively unimportant compared to the fact that you were fighting it and therefore weakening the enemy. Ergo what's important to Hamas is that it is seen to be doing more fighting than anyone else. It's how they won power in the first place. And they want to make sure that a new generation of Palestinians accept that same logic to ensure their continued rule.

Recall that this holds true even of Fatah. What is Fatah's armed wing called? The Al Aqsa Martyr's brigade. The name is deliberately chosen for its Islamic significance and undertones of a holy war. It's why they began the Intifida, which they had planned months in advance, as their Information Minister openly admitted in Arabic--to seize back popular momentum from Hamas.

I suggest that the mistake you make is to believe that Gazans hold material things to be important to them as much as Westerners do. They don't. They take a leaf from Khomeini, who explained that the Iranian (Islamist) revolution was not about the "price of watermelons", but holy struggle.

It's not that Hamas as an organisation of men must be seen in high regard as such, but they must be seen as carrying on the struggle against the West in a country whose people can only conceive themselves in terms that are antagonistic towards it. In that context, when people conclude that Hamas isn't doing a good enough job they turn to more austere and fanatical alternatives. Put simply, they have no other way of explaining how the world works other than within this political-theological framework of divine struggle. Hamas makes sure of that.

By contrast in the West there are competing explanations for how the world works. We accept or discard these explanations as best we can but we allow them to compete and exist. In Gaza, people who disagree with Hamas' explanations, like Fatah, got thrown out of buildings and shot in hospitals for their trouble back in the days of Hamas' coup. Even before the coup the only competing explanation on offer was an anti-Western nationalist-socialist fairy tale with Islamic overtones pushed by Fatah.

Yes, poverty, humiliation and living in a ghetto clearly contribute nothing to the succes of Hamas. It is only the fault of Arab culture. We get it. You convinced the rest of the world now.

[Alexander's Horse]

I haven't time to read it.

[Hauldren Collider]

Yes, poverty, humiliation and living in a ghetto clearly contribute nothing to the succes of Hamas. It is only the fault of Arab culture. We get it. You convinced the rest of the world now.

You're confusing cause and effect. The Muslim Brotherhood, its parent movement, has seen success across the Arab world now that rulers like Mubarak have fallen. So yes, it is Arab culture. You say this as if they weren't doing the same thing in '48 and '67 when they were ruled by Egypt.

[Kidlicious]

Why do the people who believe in dictatorship think it's Arab culture?

[kentonio]

You're confusing cause and effect. The Muslim Brotherhood, its parent movement, has seen success across the Arab world now that rulers like Mubarak have fallen. So yes, it is Arab culture.

Please don't be dim. If people live in **** conditions they will attract towards increasingly hardline groups who offer them a strong image of the future. It has nothing to do with culture.

[Dr Strangelove]

This just in: a group of Australian "Aborigines" who escaped to Alpha Centuri over a century ago have announced their intent to reclaim their promised land, i.e., Australia. The United Planets back their claim and have drawn up a partition for Australia. The indigenous Australians will be awarded the Northern Territory, Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, and South Australia, the non-indigenous population will be awarded Western Australia and Canberra.

[Dr Strangelove]

Why do the people who believe in dictatorship think it's Arab culture?

Up to 67 years ago dictatorship was pretty much European culture too.
Let's not forget South America too. Someone refresh my memory, which major world power has a long history of overthrowing ( directly and indirectly ) Latin American democracies in favor of military juntas?
Even after WW2 there were a number of instances in which dictatorship was forced upon Middle Eastern nations by European powers. Examples include the Shah of Iran, the kings of Egypt, Jordan, Qatar and Iraq. While the royal houses of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, and the UAE may have preceded the arrival of the Eurpeans in the area various Western fractions have definitely kept their families in power.

[dannubis]

You're confusing cause and effect. The Muslim Brotherhood, its parent movement, has seen success across the Arab world now that rulers like Mubarak have fallen. So yes, it is Arab culture. You say this as if they weren't doing the same thing in '48 and '67 when they were ruled by Egypt.

I wonder if you have quoted the correct post because if this was intened it doesn't make any sense.

[Kidlicious]

This just in: a group of Australian "Aborigines" who escaped to Alpha Centuri over a century ago have announced their intent to reclaim their promised land, i.e., Australia. The United Planets back their claim and have drawn up a partition for Australia. The indigenous Australians will be awarded the Northern Territory, Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, and South Australia, the non-indigenous population will be awarded Western Australia and Canberra.

Dictators

[dannubis]

I haven't time to read it.

Summary: it's the other guys fault mommy.

[C0ckney]

So why did Hamas decide to start firing rockets into Israel? I don't know what they thought they would accomplish aside from Gaza getting raped again.

one of their commands was killed in a 'targeted strike', or murdered, to use the term used when it's not a muslim killed. hamas then responded with rocket fire, and the israelis responded by bombing gaza and so on.

there's been a lot written by the usual suspects on hamas' motivations, but nothing on israel's. there's an election coming up in israel and unfortunately, murdering some palestinians plays well with a certain section of the israeli electorate.

[Asher]

murdering some palestinians plays well with a certain section of the israeli electorate.

As this thread demonstrates, it also plays well with some of the American and Australian electorate as well.

[C0ckney]

some people are people just blood thirsty, especially when it's the blood of arab savages being spilt.