**** the debates

[kittenOFchaos]

How is it a criticism of Bush that he presided over 9/11? I also think it's hilarious, by the way, that he thinks Republicans run for office only to get rich, as if businessmen like Mitt Romney could get richer by doing something other than business.

I wish you could read. I didn't say that Republicans run for office to get rich, that point was directed at the talking heads a la Coulter and her kin. Many rich support the Republicans because they don't like being taxed...Americans never have as we British found to our cost.

The point about 9/11 and Bush makes sense to me when the Republicans are playing up the SNAFU in Libya. Republican supporters are happy to make hay about Libya whilst their guy presided over a massive intelligence failure that allowed for the 9/11 attacks. Obama took OBL down, your guy achieved nothing and invaded Iraq on a lie and yet you still cheerlead for them. Hell, in the snippet of 3rd debate I saw, I saw Romney making out that Obama was one for starting wars...no, he was clearing up the mess left behind.

Like New Labour in Britain, the Republicans are banking on the fact that they left an economy that was on the point of ruin but that someone else will carry the can for it. People have such incredibly short memories. The fact that anyone is seriously contemplating ever voting for Labour, never mind the Republicans just goes to show how stupid the vast majority of people are. What we need in both countries are credible new political parties, divorced from the failed career politicians (particularly in Britain) that have never done anything apart from being a lawyer. For this it is essential to have new methods of voting that stop elections being a two horse race leading to little choice and a system where it is pointless most people voting.

[Jon Miller]

Based on our political system Gary Johnson/Stien won't get votes so that is the best we can hope for!

JM

[Asher]

Stop being such a whiny *****. Here's a reply you can give if you are stuck:

Virtually every single thing listed there is one thing: the economy isn't where it used to be.

Considering the global complexities of the current situation, and the fact that it was decades in the making, it's entirely unreasonable to expect that electing one man as President will instantly change the global economy.

If this is why you're not voting for Obama, you are a very stupid person.

(The downgrading of America's credit rating, by the way, can largely be attributed to the GOP (hostage worth taking, etc).)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

(The downgrading of America's credit rating, by the way, can largely be attributed to the GOP (hostage worth taking, etc).)

I know this is a preferred talking point but most evidence points to Obama as providing if not the majority of intransigence at least an equal amount. Seriously you need to read Woodward. Beside the obstinance in negotiating, the recount is extremely damning as an indictment on his negotiating honesty and ability (read leadership).

[Asher]

All I know is I saw the GOP willfully, brazenly, and openly obstruct action that would have prevented the downgrade of the US credit rating. Excuses I am not interested in.

You can't blame Obama when the GOP was throwing a tantrum and intentionally sabotaging efforts openly.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

The GOP freshmen were doing exactly what they promised and campaigned to do. They were fulfilling their mandate per the election results of 2010. The inside story of the machinations and blundering of the negotations is covered pretty well in Woodwards recounting. Very much a lack of leadership and vision.

[Asher]

The GOP freshmen were doing exactly what they promised and campaigned to do. They were fulfilling their mandate per the election results of 2010.

Then the GOP voters got exactly what they wanted. So why are they complaining now?

[giblets]

Then the GOP voters got exactly what they wanted. So why are they complaining now?

Because Obama failed to lead them into doing what the GOP wanted.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Then the GOP voters got exactly what they wanted. So why are they complaining now?

Perhaps because they want a leader, not a man willing to posture while Rome burns.


So much for the old addage the POTUS used to be responsible for, "The buck stops here." Particularly when he was one of the direct actors in the drama.

The fact that the course of action was as predictable as the sun rising in the east and not addressed by POTUS should be enough. Worse yet the Dems had this issue to resolve at any time prior to the midterms (when they owned the house) and refused in typical (and cynical cowardly) fashion to address it because they thought it might paint them in a bad light for the midterms. In other words it didn't have to get that far were it not for the amoral "everything to save power" political calculus of the Dems in the first place.

[kentonio]

Funny how the Republican mantra of personal responsibility never seems to extend to their own actions.

[Asher]

Perhaps because they want a leader, not a man willing to posture while Rome burns.

It's a very pathetic argument to blame "poor leadership" when it's clear the GOP was the cause of the problem with their petulant attitude and tantrums.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

An apt description of Obama and his reactions to Boehner. Further it is not clear that the GOP was the cause of the problem, the case is stronger for it being the Dems problem.
1) They had the numbers to make it happen. Chose not to in favor of hopes of minimizing midterm losses.
2) Misunderstood the freshmen resolve to stand true to their campaign mandate. Chose not to tack to the center ala Clinton.
3) Bargained in bad faith adding last minute provisos to an agreed upon deal and then petulently throwing a tanturm when Boehner said he couldn't make it happen.
4) As Woodward describes having no plan B. And further thinking that Obama arrogantly could will it to happen (cutting out of the equation people with established relationships. Biden and Boehner said they could get the thing done apparently had Obama not stepped in and screwed the pooch)

[Asher]

An apt description of Obama and his reactions to Boehner. Further it is not clear that the GOP was the cause of the problem, the case is stronger for it being the Dems problem.
1) They had the numbers to make it happen. Chose not to in favor of hopes of minimizing midterm losses.

This is false, as discussed in other threads.

2) Misunderstood the freshmen resolve to stand true to their campaign mandate. Chose not to tack to the center ala Clinton.

You mean refusal to meet outrageous demands.

3) Bargained in bad faith adding last minute provisos to an agreed upon deal and then petulently throwing a tanturm when Boehner said he couldn't make it happen.

I don't know the specifics on this, but it doesn't matter given 1 and 2 above.

4) As Woodward describes having no plan B. And further thinking that Obama arrogantly could will it to happen (cutting out of the equation people with established relationships. Biden and Boehner said they could get the thing done apparently).

You seem to misunderstand the issue.

It was a routine legislative action done many times before to make the government function.

The GOP tried to use the situation to hold the country hostage (in their words) to get what they wanted. It is reprehensible, no matter how you try to frame it in your brain.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

This is false, as discussed in other threads.

No.

You mean refusal to meet outrageous demands.

No

I don't know the specifics on this, but it doesn't matter given 1 and 2 above.

You should learn them.

You seem to misunderstand the issue.

It was a routine legislative action done many times before to make the government function.

The GOP tried to use the situation to hold the country hostage (in their words) to get what they wanted. It is reprehensible, no matter how you try to frame it in your brain.

And advertised they would do so to stem the tide of rampant spending. It was what the 2010 election was all about. Given the outcome of the election refusal to recognize the reality of item 2 above means the problem lies with the reality warped Obama. He is no Clinton.

[Asher]

No.

Look at the timelines of when the Dems had enough healthy people present to vote.

The GOP held America hostage and America lost. The refusal of Obama to acquiesce to patently absurd demands doesn't mean he's not a good leader. It means the GOP is filled with unpatriotic *********.