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  • But what do those numbers mean? Not much, a variety of experts told us.

    Counting the number of ships or aircraft is not a good measurement of defense strength because their capabilities have increased dramatically in recent decades. Romney’s comparison "doesn’t pass ‘the giggle test,’ " said William W. Stueck, a historian at the University of Georgia.

    Consider what types of naval ships were used in 1916 and 2011. The types of ships active in both years, such as cruisers and destroyers, are outfitted today with far more advanced technology than what was available during World War I. More importantly, the U.S. Navy has 11 aircraft carriers (plus the jets to launch from them), 31 amphibious ships, 14 submarines capable of launching nuclear ballistic missiles and four specialized submarines for launching Cruise missiles -- all categories of vessels that didn't exist in 1916.

    As for the Air Force, many U.S. planes may be old, but they "have been modernized with amazing sensors and munitions even when the airframes themselves haven’t been," said Michael O’Hanlon, a scholar at the Brookings Institution. Human factors matter, too. "The vast superiority of the U.S. Air Force has little to do with number of planes, but with vastly superior training, in-flight coordination and control, as well as precision targeting and superior missiles," said Charles Knight, co-director of the Project on Defense Alternatives at the Massachusetts-based Commonwealth Institute.

    Ruehrmund and Bowie write in their report that "although the overall force level is lower, the capabilities of the current force in almost all respects far exceed that of the huge Air Force of the 1950s. Today’s Air Force can maintain surveillance of the planet with space and air-breathing systems; strike with precision any point on the globe within hours; deploy air power and joint forces with unprecedented speed and agility; and provide high-bandwidth secure communications and navigation assistance to the entire joint force."

    Increasingly crucial today are pilotless aerial vehicles, some of which are more commonly known as drones.

    "The Air Force now buys more unmanned than manned aircraft every year, and that trend is not going to change," said Lance Janda, a historian at Cameron University. "Within our lifetime, I think you’ll see an end to manned combat aircraft, because unmanned planes are more capable and a lot cheaper."

    For a sense of comparison, in 1947, "it took dozens of planes and literally hundreds of bombs to destroy a single target because they were so inaccurate," said Todd Harrison, a fellow with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. "But thanks to smart bombs and stealthy aircraft, today it only takes a single plane and often a single bomb to destroy a target."

    Or as John Pike, director of globalsecurity.org, puts it: "Would anyone care to trade today's Navy or Air Force for either service at any point in the 20th century?"

    There’s also another problem with Romney’s claim. He appears to be throwing blame on Obama, which is problematic because military buildups and draw-downs these days take years to run their course. Just look at the long, slow declines in the number of ships and aircraft. These are not turn-on-a-dime events that can be pegged to one president.

    "Ships are so expensive that they have to be built over long periods of time, and at a pace that accounts for the retirement from service of other ships as well," Janda said. "We also have to space the building out over long periods of time to keep our major shipyards working at a rate that’s sustainable over several decades, because you can’t let them go under and then try to reform them in time of war. So Congress and the president make decisions each year regarding the needs of the Navy that do not come to fruition for decades, making it ridiculous to give blame or praise to the president for the current situation."

    All this said, there are lots of serious issues facing the military that Obama, or whoever defeats him in 2012, will have to address.

    One is the age of the Air Force’s assets, which is probably Romney’s strongest point. And despite the technological advantages of today’s military, there are limitations to having a smaller number of ships and aircraft. For instance, both branches, and especially the Navy, have to be able to position enough assets around the world where they are needed.

    And having a "small but sophisticated military is also risky," said Thomas Bruscino, a professor at the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College. "If the Navy loses one carrier to enemy action, for any reason, that loss would be catastrophic in a way such a loss would not have been in the past," Bruscino said. "Likewise, the Air Force cannot afford to lose even small numbers of the highly sophisticated airframes of today."

    Still, most experts we spoke to felt that Romney’s critique was misguided. Knight went so far as to offer this reply:

    "If Mr. Romney wants a truly stark example of diminished military capability, he should compare today’s horse cavalry to that in 1917, or even 1941 when there were still 15 active horse-cavalry regiments in the Army. Today there has been total disarmament of horse cavalry,’ he might say, ‘leaving our nation defenseless in this regard.’ His chosen comparisons are almost as absurd."
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post
      Shall we not address this bayonet gap?!
      If anything, Romney's sole focus on Battleships is too pie in the sky. We need to get back to reasonable, solid, proven Ironclad technology. After all our coasts are going to be threatened by Russians when they no doubt try to invade.
      "I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
      'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MikeH View Post
        He didn't make fun of bayonets. He made fun of Romney.
        Who at no time advocated either bayonets or horses (other than Ann's dressage pairing). All Obama has is strawman techniques and it comes as no surprise that appeals mightily to this crowd.

        I would also point out Romney merely mentioned number of ships and did not presume to indicate the composition of those ships and advocate on behalf of battleships, carriers, nuke subs or otherwise, but again the poly crowd does love them some moronitude.
        Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe; October 23, 2012, 12:33.
        "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

        “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe View Post
          Who at no time advocated either bayonets or horses (other than Ann's dressage pairing). All Obama has is strawman and it comes as no surprise that appeals mightily to this crowd.
          Alluding to other military methods, equipment, and technology we don't dump billions of dollars into is not a strawman.

          How could Obama have made a point about the needlessness of building more naval vessels when ours are pretty damn awesome in a humorous way?
          "I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
          'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger

          Comment


          • It was a simple and effective way of pointing out that counting numbers of ships compared to 1917 was retarded. Which it was.
            Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
            Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
            We've got both kinds

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe View Post
              Who at no time advocated either bayonets or horses (other than Ann's dressage pairing). All Obama has is strawman and it comes as no surprise that appeals mightily to this crowd.
              Funny, I thought he was just using it as a snarky comment and it was the people on the right who were actually seriously arguing about the vast importance of bayonets and horses in todays military. Maybe you should read back a few pages for a reminder.

              Comment


              • It's basically Spearman vs Tank so I shouldn't be surprised it's so popular an argument on Poly.
                Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
                Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
                We've got both kinds

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe View Post
                  Who at no time advocated either bayonets or horses (other than Ann's dressage pairing). All Obama has is strawman and it comes as no surprise that appeals mightily to this crowd.
                  Err...it wasn't a strawman. He was illustrating the absurdity of Romney's argument. This point seems lost on almost all Romney supporters in this thread, who have proceeded to argue how important bayonets are...
                  "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                  Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                  Comment


                  • I don't think its lost as much as they realize their candidate got smacked down and are doing their best at spin control.
                    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                    Comment


                    • Spin control by arguing about how integral horses and bayonettes are to national defense.
                      "I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
                      'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MikeH View Post
                        It was a simple and effective way of pointing out that counting numbers of ships compared to 1917 was retarded. Which it was.
                        No, then he needs to indicate that cutting down the number of ships from circa 2000 to now means a reduced role for the navy and the power one expects it to project. Our role in 1917 was a completely different one than today, wherein we were simply keeping up with the Jones, (England, Japan, and Germany). We weren't attempting worldwide power projection. Man up and say he expects the US role to be diminished as a consequence. Thats OK and likely a realistic approach, but don't hide behind the "Our weaponry is so friggin awesome we don't need anymore we can still do everything we always did" meme. Thats a bald faced lie.

                        Particularly in light of the ever present arguement we heard back in the Bush days about how the military is beyond stretched or how we couldn't afford to provide any additional carrier based air support during the Libyan escapades and that the Euro's had to pony up the planes.
                        Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe; October 23, 2012, 12:46.
                        "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                        “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by kentonio View Post
                          Funny, I thought he was just using it as a snarky comment and it was the people on the right who were actually seriously arguing about the vast importance of bayonets and horses in todays military. Maybe you should read back a few pages for a reminder.
                          What would you know about seriously arguing?
                          "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                          “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

                          Comment


                          • Battleships surely aren't very useful in force projection in this day and age. In general Battleships have been pretty marginal in utility since the time of their introduction.

                            Should we fire up the drydocks again and start building them?
                            "I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
                            'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger

                            Comment


                            • Who the **** said anything about Battleships except for Obama in a strawman arguement?

                              And so the question is not a game of Battleship where we’re counting ships. It’s — it’s what are our capabilities.
                              A reasonable sounding point except that he never addresses what capabilities are desired or whether they meet the overall strategic needs (ie. how many simultaneous potential theatres of conflict is the Navy anticipated having to support)
                              Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe; October 23, 2012, 12:56.
                              "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                              “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

                              Comment


                              • Absolutely, that would explain why the Navy is spending billions of dollars on new ships to replace the naval gunfire support capability that we lost when our last two battleships were decommissioned.

                                Though it is true that "battleships" aren't really necessary for naval gunfire support. The new ships for that role aren't battleships (although they are ridiculously overpriced as per usual).

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