2012 Nobel Peace Prize

[regexcellent]

That could be accomplished with something more akin to NAFTA. America and Canada have a huge amount of trade, to the massive benefit of both countries, but we don't have a giant unelected bureaucracy governing it that reduces the national sovereignty of both.

[notyoueither]

Ideals don't require preservation by supra-national bureaucracies.

You mean like the one created by thirteen otherwise sovereign former colonies?

[regexcellent]

The culture of the first thirteen states was much closer than that of Europe and they actually had a need for common defense. Not to mention their economies were in some respects not self-sufficient.

[Hauldren Collider]

If the colonies hadn't banded together they would have been roflstomped by Britain. In the meantime, much of the EU is already part of NATO.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'd give the USA a Nobel Peace Price back in the 1790s! USA!!

[notyoueither]

The culture of the first thirteen states was much closer than that of Europe and they actually had a need for common defense. Not to mention their economies were in some respects not self-sufficient.

Of course the specifics are different, but if the USA worked out (sort of) then why shouldn't Europeans aspire to more than they could be and have by maintaining their own private sandboxes?

They've made a hash of the economics. That doesn't mean they shouldn't try and keep trying.

I'll also point out that, prior to the financial fiasco on Wall Street, there were rising voices muttering about things like an Amero.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Tbh, the economics of the original Articles of Confederation United States were horrendous... that was a big impetus for the Constitution.

[giblets]

I'll also point out that, prior to the financial fiasco on Wall Street, there were rising voices muttering about things like an Amero.

Wasn't that a right-wing conspiracy theory?

[C0ckney]

Of course the specifics are different, but if the USA worked out (sort of) then why shouldn't Europeans aspire to more than they could be and have by maintaining their own private sandboxes?

becasue in order to have a democracy, you need a demos. there are 25 countries in the EU and around 35 national identities.

[Hauldren Collider]

I'd give the USA a Nobel Peace Price back in the 1790s! USA!!

Give a peace prize to Robert E. Lee for surrendering

[notyoueither]

becasue in order to have a democracy, you need a demos. there are 25 countries in the EU and around 35 national identities.

I get that there is a lot of room for people to be sceptical, and that existing EU institutions are less than perfect, but...

The European Union presents every member nation with a magnificently attractive vision: A Europe at peace with itself, a Europe of rising prosperity, a Europe in which Europeans can move freely to live and work. When extremist forces arise in European countries — as they are rising now in Greece and in Hungary — they are met with the answer, “But if we yield to these forces, we’ll put ourselves outside Europe. No more right to work in London. No more aid from Germany.” The desire to qualify for Europe has powerfully pulled countries such as Serbia and Romania along the democratic path — and in years to come will exert the same force upon Belarus and Ukraine.

That’s a powerful and precious achievement. At a moment when the achievement risks being lost or forgotten due to a financial fiasco, the parliamentarians of Oslo did well to use their most effective platform to remind Europe and the world of what is at risk.

I can perfectly understand many Europeans seeing the benefits of integration and continuing to move in that direction.

[C0ckney]

I can perfectly understand many Europeans seeing the benefits of integration and continuing to move in that direction.

i think that most people in europe support honest friendship, co-operation, free trade and free movement of people between the nations europe. that is certainly my position. in fact, it is what we already have.

however, this push for more integration, for economic and political union, enjoys far less support. the EU and the countries within it, are very afraid of asking their people directly about this. when people have been given a chance to vote on the direction the EU is taking, their reaction has been lukewarm at best. i'm very concerned about the likely results of imposing a political structure on top of people who don't support it.

[regexcellent]

The whole basis of the EU is largely undemocratic because many of its core concepts are fundamentally unpalatable and would not pass democratically. Free trade, free movement, and some degree of harmonized regulation are fantastic but when you start moving in the direction of "United States of Europe" that's getting a bit ridiculous.

[Hauldren Collider]

The EU parliament itself is an incredibly undemocratic joke. There are over 750 MPs--how can anyone hope to have a voice in a legislature so large? That's almost twice the size of the US legislature--for only about 40% more people. And the US legislature is already undemocratic in a lot of ways.

[iwebnet]

I agree with you.