A depressing thread

[OneFootInTheGrave]

China is Communist, I think the two are getting along nicely

[kentonio]

Yes. And I would absolutely support military intervention to prevent a communist from taking power somewhere.

That's hilarious.

[Hauldren Collider]

China is Communist, I think the two are getting along nicely

It's a shame we were unable to prevent them from becoming communist. If Chiang Kai-Shek had won, many lives would have been saved and China would be a much bigger economy now, most likely.

[MrFun]

Yes. And I would absolutely support military intervention to prevent a communist from taking power somewhere.

Even if the majority of people in a country clearly want communism?

[regexcellent]

I was talking about the Dhofar rebellion in Oman, a great example of a successful hearts and minds campaign that didn't involve blowing up loads of innocent people.

It really helps when the insurgents can't get immunity by sticking a toe over what is, in that location, literally a straight line in sand.

So countries aren't allowed to pick their own political systems?

As Kuci said, not if the choice is Communism, no more than if the choice is Nazism.

Incidently as the US-Vietnam war ended up killing about 2-2.5m civilians, and involved the US using napalm, chemical weapons and a host of other rather nasty tactics I'd be careful about trying to play the morals card.

Napalm is a legitimate weapon; it's effective for clearing out buildings, caves, and tunnels, and forces all around the world are equipped with it. American and British forward tactical aircraft in West Germany were equipped with napalm bombs through the end of the cold war to use against possible advancing Warsaw Pact mechanized forces in the Fulda Gap. As for chemical weapons--

American use of agent orange would be classed as a breach of a ton of conventions including Geneva and would be termed by everyone as a war crime, whats your point?

Agent Orange is an herbicide. You can drink it. Our air force personnel in the units that used it would haze each other by making new guys drink it. That's right, you can drink it. Members of those units do not have a higher rate of cancer or other diseases than anyone else. The concentrations in which it was spread in Vietnam were very small on a per-acre basis. It was used very effectively in clearing out vegetation on the side of roads to make them ambush-proof. Agent Orange saved a lot of American lives in Vietnam.

Think about it. Imagine you're in Vietnam, driving along a narrow road. Anything in the road, a single mine, a pothole, whatever, could block your progress for a few minutes. Less than a few feet to either side there's vegetation so thick you can't see more than a few inches into it. The VC do something to the road, with a mine or a pothole or whatever, and wait in the bushes until a convoy reaches it.

In technical parlance that's known as a "deathtrap."

Actually, there were something like a dozen different chemical agents that we sprayed in Vietnam. Agent Orange just sounds like "Clockwork Orange" so that's the one the anti-war, anti-corporate hippies rolled with. You don't hear about Agent Pink or Agent White. It doesn't sound as menacing. Incidentally, Agent Orange is a clear liquid, not orange; it was only called Agent Orange because of the orange stripe around the container which identified it.

In other words you do support the killing of babies as long as you hit what you consider legitimate targets at the same time. That's a repulsive view that belongs in the last century, not this one.

No. Consideration to their presence can be made, however, we should accept the fact that we can't fight a war with zero innocent casualties. That's pure fantasy.

You both kill innocent people and you personally it seems have no problem with that if it advances your military goals.

I'm not willing to give up military goals over a handful of civilians every now and then. That just encourages more use of human shields.

Once upon a time there was a man named Ilych Ramirez Sanchez, better known as Carlos the Jackal. Actually, he's still alive, but he's in a French prison. Among many other despicable acts of terrorism, he once went to the OPEC headquarters in Vienna, Austria and held everyone inside hostage, demanding the following:

1. The Austrians play anti-Semitic messages on public TV and radio stations (obviously something very sensitive for a country that was once responsible for the Holocaust)
2. That he would be provided with an aircraft and flight crew out of the country, where he would take hostages on board and bring them to an undisclosed country of his choosing.

The Austrians, being massive pussies, agreed to his demands. This of course was completely ridiculous at the time because it encouraged further acts of terrorism and allowed one of the most evil people on the face of the planet to get away clean.

Compare, when Chechen terrorists took over a school in Russia in 2004, the Russians refused to make concessions to the Chechens. On the third day there was an explosion in the school, and chaos broke out. The Russian forces assaulted the school with armor, infantry, and artillery. A number of hostages and all but one of the terrorists died (the last was captured). The Chechens never tried that again. I wonder why. Maybe because the Russians showed them that they can't get what they want by endangering children.

This may seem like it's a horrible thing to do and it's murdering innocent children. No, the Chechens murdered the children. The Russians merely demonstrated that they wouldn't let them use human shields to their advantage. It's the same principle as "Millions for defense, but not one penny for tribute." Nobody will ever demand tribute from you if you always fight rather than pay. Similarly, if you demonstrate that no matter how many innocent lives terrorists endanger, you won't let any of them get out alive, they'll very quickly stop bothering with a tactic that doesn't work and gets them killed, thus preventing future loss of innocent life. The Russian response, in my opinion, was much better than the Austrian one.

Couple of things, firstly Afghanis are not all stoneage village dwellers who have no contact with the outside world, people have widespread family and tribal links that often cross borders and telephones, and radio and TV and many ways of hearing what is happening in the region. They certainly do care. Secondly the reason the Taliban are able to operate cross border is because they have support from the Pakistanis in thsoe border regions. You think they don't care about their families and children being murdered?

Yes, very good! You've noticed that many of the Pakistani people support the insurgency, which is exactly why we need to fight there if we want to win! You're pointing out that there are people sympathetic to the Taliban on both sides of the border. One important way of solving that is to make that choice be a fatal one.

I'm not going to judge him for what he did, it wouldn't be right or fair having not been in that situation. A lot of people would not have taken the shot though.

That isn't something that happened once; the Somali militiamen made a habit of it. Lots of people were running around with guns clutching babies and firing at our Rangers. They figured the Rangers would shy away from shooting back. This is, in essence, exactly what the terrorists in Afghanistan do by hiding among civilians.

And I don't blame any of the Rangers one bit for the dead babies.

[regexcellent]

Even if the majority of people in a country clearly want communism?

Yes! Yes, even then, just like in Germany when people voted for the Nazis.

[regexcellent]

It's a shame we were unable to prevent them from becoming communist. If Chiang Kai-Shek had won, many lives would have been saved and China would be a much bigger economy now, most likely.

What's really amazing is how much wealthier Taiwan is than mainland China despite being stuck on an island. Hmm, why might that be...

[kentonio]

It really helps when the insurgents can't get immunity by sticking a toe over what is, in that location, literally a straight line in sand.

We successfully stopped a rebellion that was receiving cross border support without invading another neighbouring country. Whats your point?

As Kuci said, not if the choice is Communism, no more than if the choice is Nazism.

Good (and utterly predictable) to see you being just as wrong as HC. America couldn't do a damn thing about it, and certainly would not start a war. It's not the 1960's anymore.

Napalm is a legitimate weapon; it's effective for clearing out buildings, caves, and tunnels, and forces all around the world are equipped with it. American and British forward tactical aircraft in West Germany were equipped with napalm bombs through the end of the cold war to use against possible advancing Warsaw Pact mechanized forces in the Fulda Gap.

It's a despicable weapon that might have a justification in a total war, but otherwise has no place on the battlefield.

Agent Orange is an herbicide. You can drink it. Our air force personnel in the units that used it would haze each other by making new guys drink it. That's right, you can drink it. Members of those units do not have a higher rate of cancer or other diseases than anyone else. The concentrations in which it was spread in Vietnam were very small on a per-acre basis. It was used very effectively in clearing out vegetation on the side of roads to make them ambush-proof. Agent Orange saved a lot of American lives in Vietnam.

You're seriously trying to say Agent Orange is harmless? Are you completely ****ing retarded?

The Vietnam Red Cross reported as many as 3 million Vietnamese people have been affected by Agent Orange, including at least 150,000 children born with birth defects.[36] According to Vietnamese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 4.8 million Vietnamese people were exposed to Agent Orange, resulting in 400,000 people being killed or maimed, and 500,000 children born with birth defects.[1] Women had higher rates of miscarriage and stillbirths, as did livestock such as cattle, water buffalo, and pigs.[37]

Children in the areas where Agent Orange was used have been affected and have multiple health problems, including cleft palate, mental disabilities, hernias, and extra fingers and toes.[38] In the 1970s, high levels of dioxin were found in the breast milk of South Vietnamese women, and in the blood of U.S. soldiers who had served in Vietnam.

[kentonio]

[EDIT]

[Dinner]

Because this death of thousands of people was unnecessary and easily preventable by a simple decision, like "let's not firebomb Dresden", when the outcome of war was pretty much guaranteed whether this was done or not. That's why the focus on those particular unnecessary deaths which some of you view as "collaborators".

Dresden was a major transportation hub which the Germans were using to move military personnel, vehicles, and supplies. Also, the Nazis could have surrendered if they wanted the destruction to stop but obviously they didn't feel they were quite ready to do that yet therefor continuing the campaign as normal was needed to get them too the point of surrender.

[kentonio]

Oh and Reg, here's what those commies at the VA have to say about it.

VA has recognized certain cancers and other health problems as presumptive diseases associated with exposure to Agent Orange or other herbicides during military service. Veterans and their survivors may be eligible for disability compensation or survivors' benefits for these diseases.

http://www.publichealth.va.gov/expos...e/diseases.asp

[DaShi]

It's a shame we were unable to prevent them from becoming communist. If Chiang Kai-Shek had won, many lives would have been saved and China would be a much bigger economy now, most likely.

Actually, probably not. Chiang Kai-Shek wasn't interesting in developing China's economy or modernizing, for that matter.

[DaShi]

What's really amazing is how much wealthier Taiwan is than mainland China despite being stuck on an island. Hmm, why might that be...

Ignore the pure stupidity of the "stuck on an island" comment, it's probably the huge population difference and the difficulty in developing such a large country. That's the simple obvious answer to why Taiwan became wealthy before China. Of course, that has changed dramatically. China economy now far surpasses Taiwan's, which is still struggling from the global recession.

[DaShi]

I thought HC went to a good school.

[Jaguar]

China economy now far surpasses Taiwan's, which is still struggling from the global recession.

What do you mean by "surpasses?"