Stupid is as stupid does and stupidity votes Obama

[Lorizael]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Illinois_clout_scandal

[Jaguar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers..._clout_scandal

That's admissions. We were talking about grades.

As far as I know, that only made the news because it's a public university. Of course there are people at private universities who get in based on past donations (or expected future donations) from their parents. Once they get in, they take the same courses we do.

[Jaguar]

Oh, and if you have to have your parents buy your way into UIUC, you're a huge tool.

[Lorizael]

I know that institutional academic cheating occurs at the high school level; I have no evidence that it occurs at the college level. But the original discussion (for this tangent) was whether or not some degree holders had earned their degrees. If students can be admitted based on political and social connections, then the answer is most certainly that yes, some degree holders have not earned their degrees.

[Jaguar]

They took the classes and got the grades.

(What relevance any of this has on Mitt Romney, who was first in his class at BYU and gave the commencement address, is beyond me.)

[Asher]

BYU is a joke. I have no idea why it's so well respected.

I know two tools who went there. They went there and got in because, surprise, they were Mormon.

[Lorizael]

They took the classes and got the grades.

If students were given admissions assistance, I wouldn't be at all surprised if their academics were sometimes allowed to slide as well. Additionally, at the end of the day, degrees are binary: you either have one or you don't. How well you did in getting that degree is mostly inconsequential once you're out into the real world.

(What relevance any of this has on Mitt Romney, who was first in his class at BYU and gave the commencement address, is beyond me.)

I have no idea, either. I've seen nothing to indicate that Romney didn't earn his degree.

[Jaguar]

If students were given admissions assistance, I wouldn't be at all surprised if their academics were sometimes allowed to slide as well.

How? Explain the mechanism. Do you think there's a master list of students with rich parents that the professors pass around when giving semester grades?

Additionally, at the end of the day, degrees are binary: you either have one or you don't. How well you did in getting that degree is mostly inconsequential once you're out into the real world.

A notable distortion, but one that affects helps all poor students equally.

[Hauldren Collider]

BYU is not a joke. It's substantially more elite and selective than Calgary, that's for sure.

[Jaguar]

This was your big grand moment to show everyone how worldly you are, and how much of a young fool HC is. "You can't buy grades," HC said. And you (Lori and Asher) thought "I am going to look so suave and sophisticated and cynical" and you posted the LOL smiley, to indicate how your jaded self chuckles with amusement at his innocence.

Instead, you're looking like black-helicopter conspiracy theorists and HC looks sober and mature by comparison.

[snoopy369]

BYU is a pretty good school. Every school has a tool or three... I do think that Lori's original statement is pretty hard to disagree with - he didn't say everybody, or any percent, got degrees they didn't earn; he said some nonzero number did, which is pretty likely. What likely happened is that the parent of X student, who earned grades in the D-F level, called the regents and complained that Y professor is being unfair, and then Z regent either had Y professor change their grade, or fired Y professor. That certainly happens at places like U of I. I don't know if it happens _a lot_, but a nonzero number of times, sure.

[Hauldren Collider]

University of Illinois is not Harvard Law School or Brigham Young. Maybe it happens a nonzero number of times, but that doesn't mean that it happens a meaningful number of times, or that there is actually any under-the-table process for it to happen. What Asher and Lori suggested was that you can buy your grades. The occasional person being able to pull a favor with a dean is NOT "able to buy your grades", it's "one person at one time in one place was corrupt".

[Lorizael]

BYU is a pretty good school. Every school has a tool or three... I do think that Lori's original statement is pretty hard to disagree with - he didn't say everybody, or any percent, got degrees they didn't earn; he said some nonzero number did, which is pretty likely. What likely happened is that the parent of X student, who earned grades in the D-F level, called the regents and complained that Y professor is being unfair, and then Z regent either had Y professor change their grade, or fired Y professor. That certainly happens at places like U of I. I don't know if it happens _a lot_, but a nonzero number of times, sure.

This.

[Hauldren Collider]

You aren't proving anything here. You're commenting that the system has some bad apples. But there is NO under the table system for buying your grades in return for donations. There just isn't, which is what you and Asher disputed.

[Asher]

This was your big grand moment to show everyone how worldly you are, and how much of a young fool HC is. "You can't buy grades," HC said. And you (Lori and Asher) thought "I am going to look so suave and sophisticated and cynical" and you posted the LOL smiley, to indicate how your jaded self chuckles with amusement at his innocence.

Instead, you're looking like black-helicopter conspiracy theorists and HC looks sober and mature by comparison.

You're honestly pretty dense, Jaguar.

What are you expecting? For me to be able to use the powers of the internet to find out that donor's children will sail through an education? That football players get aid from their school to pass so they can fill more seats?

It's going to be hard or impossible to prove that, especially for a specific school. You can dismiss it as a black-helicopter conspiracy theorist, but the reality of the situation is everyone knows it goes on. Intelligent people have the capability of deduction.