It's Libyan for "thank you"

[Hauldren Collider]

So a handful of tiny countries on the periphery of the Muslim world, those most exposed to the civilizing effects of the West, are "free." Of course, Lebanon is a Syrian puppet, Kuwait is a monarchy, Morocco blames women for being raped, and Turkey (the only big one) vacillates between Islamic governments and military dictatorships. That's as free as Islam gets.

Lebanon is also run by Hezbollah for the parts that are actually Muslim.

[Felch]

Sounds like all of Latin America and Spain/Portugal up until the 1970's.

Hispanics were incapable of freedom, clearly


Germany was a seemingly perpetual military dictatorship long before Prussian unification and continued into 1945 and into 1991 in the East.

France was a feudal then absolute monarchy for a millennium until a violent revolution that led to a Reign of Terror and the formation of a military dictatorship. France then alternated between brief republics and military dictatorships.


The Islamic world seems right on a Hegelian schedule.

Congratulations. Islam holds society back only by a few generations.

[Al B. Sure!]

Congratulations. Islam holds society back only by a few generations.

I wasn't aware that Napoleon III was being propped up and funded by foreign powers for decades...

[regexcellent]

What exactly is wrong with Erdogan?

Where do I even start? I feel like it would be best to just point you in the direction of everything Michael Rubin has written about Turkey in the past two years.

I suspect DaShi thinks of Michael Rubin in the same terms as he thinks of Zevico so cue his entrance...

Let's start with Israel and the PKK. Erdogan openly supports Hamas, and criticizes Israel for reasonable counter-terrorism activity against it and other groups that seek to destroy Israel. At the same time, Turkey's eastern Kurdish areas are under rule by an iron fist, where the military has free reign to kill and pillage in the name of stamping out the PKK, a terrorist organization which, while bad, is significantly nicer than Hamas. Seem slightly hypocritical?

Then there's the progressive Islamization of the country, which was previously secular. Erdogan's government has been desecrating and demolishing holy sites not belonging to Sunni Muslims. Turkey's bid for entry into the EU has been used by Erdogan to neutralize the only force limiting his political power, the military. The EU stated that Turkey had to reduce military influence in politics to enter, which is very unfortunate since the military in Turkey has been the only thing keeping it free. The Muslim world has a consistent problem where the countries are much better off when they aren't ruled democratically, because the wishes of the people are absolutely horrifying. Turkey is only somewhat better than average in this regard.

Free speech has declined substantially under Erdogan. His thugs have made a habit of harassing and arresting his critics. Turkey's position in the Index for Press Freedom has been dropping like a rock under his tenure.

I could go on, but you should all get the picture by now.

[DaShi]

I'm just glad I was mentioned.

[C0ckney]

Lebanon is also run by Hezbollah for the parts that are actually Muslim.

lebanon is far more complex than that.

[Hauldren Collider]

No, it's really not that complex. Hezbollah is the de facto government of the south. They also have some influence in the kind-of-but-not-really democratic northern and more heavily Christian areas. They are also basically vassals of Iran and Syria.

[giblets]

I wasn't aware that Napoleon III was being propped up and funded by foreign powers for decades...

No, although foreign powers did their best to stifle the French revolution, so foreign powers clearly made it harder for France to become a democracy. What is your point?

[Al B. Sure!]

No, although foreign powers did their best to stifle the French revolution, so foreign powers clearly made it harder for France to become a democracy. What is your point?

What is my point? That Islam is not the only factor at play here and that Islam may not necessarily even be contributing to caudillo-style Muslim strong-men.

Charismatic strong-man dictatorships are probably the default political state for humans owing to our tribal origins. They describe, by an overwhelming majority, nearly the entirety of human societies.

Most of Western Europe emerged from that style of government in the late 19th century though obviously Italy and Germany took until 1945. Latin America and the Iberian peninsula took until the 1970's, with a lot of foreign involvement either way over the years, first propping up dictators and then combating them. Russia and Belarus are still under strong-men dictators. The Islamic world follows the same pattern, also with foreign intervention.

[Al B. Sure!]

No, it's really not that complex. Hezbollah is the de facto government of the south. They also have some influence in the kind-of-but-not-really democratic northern and more heavily Christian areas. They are also basically vassals of Iran and Syria.

Where the hell do you get this information about Lebanon? Do you know how much the Lebanese population hates Syria for occupying Lebanon from the Civil War to 2005, an occupation which started as an Arab League peace-keeping force to protect Christians in opposition to the pro-Palestinian groups? What do you think the Cedar Revolution was about? Do you think the Sunni Muslims are fond of Hezbollah or the pro-Syrian Alawites? It's a ****ing mess.

The Lebanese civil war was a confusing mess of alliances and Israel was just as much a meddling part of it all as Syria, as I discussed in another thread, adding another influencer in the mix to make **** more complicated.

Did you know that President Aoun waged a war of liberation against Syria in 1990 but the US, to secure Syrian support against Saddam Hussein in the first Gulf War, supported the Syrian government in their invasion of Beirut?



It'd be very convenient to view Lebanon as a monolithic Syrian puppet dominated by Hezbollah. Hell, why not align enemies like Sunni Islamists with Hezbollah and the Alawites as an anti-Israel, Islamic tag-team? It makes things so much simpler for your rah rah pro-Israel stuff and justifies Israeli invasions and meddling in Lebanese politics over the past 30+ years. Unfortunately, Lebanon is far more complex than that.

[C0ckney]

No, it's really not that complex.

yes, it really is. you don't know what you're talking about.

do yourself (and us) a favour and read up a little about its history, religious makeup and politics. al has even made a start for you.

[Uncle Sparky]

Today, Canada quietly closed its embassies in Egypt, Sudan and Libya. Temporary measures, according to the PMO. Why the hell are we in Sudan? Al-Bashir is wanted by the international criminal court on charges of war crimes. Oh wait, they have oil... never mind.

[Dinner]

The Libyan thing is looking less and less like a real riot and more and more like a staged terrorist attack.

[regexcellent]

If it's a terrorist attack, which I can totally believe, then what's the political angle? Genuine question. Possibly to drive the west out of Libya?

Semi-related: A former engineering professor from my university is now the prime minister of Libya.

[Uncle Sparky]

The timing was interesting. According to the CBC, the ambassador hadn't been at the Benghazi consulate in quite a while and was supposed to be there briefly. Sounds like the attackers either got lucky or had good intel.