News about the female body

[giblets]

Some people are born with only half a brain. Should we treat them differently?

Ben Kenobi is still able to write a complete sentence so I think he deserves to live.

[Asher]

Edited so MikeH need not send me a PM scolding me.

[Robert]

THIS...

But then again - and here the entire religion issue comes into play - if you are so frustrated about sex that sex ed becomes impossible, then you reap what you saw, i.e. a lot more unwanted pregnancies. So maybe Plomp, the religeous fanatics should look to themselves first...

My anti-abortion pov is not b/c of my christian faith. Of course I'm influenced by the people around me who are christians, but I think that pro or anti abortion shouldn't be a matter of religion.

But you're right, having strict/over the top rules on sexuality is not a good thing either.
I've had and I'm having many debates with my fellow christians on many topics about sex. I'm always pushing everybody to be both open and and not to shy about sex and all that comes with it.

But despite that I am absolutely in pro use of anti-conception, I refuse to say that the Roman Catholic Church is responsible for AIDS victims and teen pregnancy b/c the church is against anti-conception. It's absurd to think that people who ignore 99% of the sex rules of the Roman Catholic Church will suddenly abstain from using a condome b/c the church tells them so.

Having said that, the RCC view on sex is absurd and has nothing to do with christianity, the bible or the christian faith.

[Lorizael]

There are qualitative differences between fetuses and what most of us would consider normal humans, but few of those differences are neither arbitrary nor inclusive of some categories of humans (the old, the disabled, the vegetable, etc.). The best argument in favor of abortion is that fetuses are not citizens, and thus not subject to protection under the law.

I'll note that, being amoral, I have no problem with abortion being legal in the United States. But I believe that the vast majority of the time, there are better solutions than abortion to the problem of unwanted pregnancy. Sex ed, contraception, reversible sterilization at birth, etc.

[Robert]

It's easy.

I grew up in a society where it was normal to be allowed, the social and medical debate had basically reached the conclusion that it's ok in early pregnancy, and in a few other cases. I understand the history, the womens rights issues, the medical evidence and the story of how we came to that decision, and the rules we have seem about right to me.

I don't think anyone wants to have an abortion, no-one wants there to be loads of unnecessary abortions going on. Prevention through sex education and contraception is much better and we need to focus on those too.

I grew up in a society where eating meat is normal and it wasn't questioned how the meat came to be.
Now I'm still a happy meat consumer, but once in a while I am confronted by how animals are treated before they end up on my plate, and I'm feeling guilty about it. I'm still eating meat, and not against my conscience, but b/c I just think that I can despite the circumstances.

What I wonder about if pro-choice people can understand pro-life people.
Do you think we're total lunatics, or do you think that we have valid points but that your own arguments are better/more important?

I ask b/c sometimes it seems like in debates things are black/white and both parties think that the other opinions are totally crap and worthless. I think that's BS. The world is not black/white, it's often gray. And our opinion is the sum of the pro's and the cons we weight in our minds.
I can imagine that people are pro-choice. I can't imagine that people who are pro-choice, after careful consideration, will laugh about pro-life opinions and put those away as total crap. People who do that most probably decided without much thinking.

I hope that you get what I mean.

[Dauphin]

I'll note that, being amoral, I have no problem with abortion being legal in the United States. But I believe that the vast majority of the time, there are better solutions than abortion to the problem of unwanted pregnancy. Sex ed, contraception, reversible sterilization at birth, etc.

I didn't realise that this was a mutually exclusive issue. Many people who have had sex ed and used effective contraception as instructed end up pregnant.

I may be naive, but I would be surprised if a large proportion of people say "I don't need contraceptives, I can just have an abortion if I get pregnant". (Of course, a large proportion of those who did get pregnant probably did so from lapses of concentration on the use of contraception)

[Asher]

Yeah, the biggest problem is kids think all kinds of junk help. Like the rhythm method...or pulling out...

[Lorizael]

I didn't realise that this was a mutually exclusive issue. Many people who have had sex ed and used effective contraception as instructed end up pregnant.

I may be naive, but I would be surprised if a large proportion of people say "I don't need contraceptives, I can just have an abortion if I get pregnant". (Of course, a large proportion of those who did get pregnant probably did so from lapses of concentration on the use of contraception)

Ah. I'm talking about this as a problem for society in general, not in specific instances. To reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in society, advocating for contraception and sex ed clearly helps. No, I don't think that people go around saying, "I can just get an abortion."

Yes, abortion also reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies, but it's costly, and that is all it does. Sex ed and contraceptives both have much broader applications, so they're a better use of a limited number of resources (resources dedicated toward reproductive/sexual health).

[kentonio]

But despite that I am absolutely in pro use of anti-conception, I refuse to say that the Roman Catholic Church is responsible for AIDS victims and teen pregnancy b/c the church is against anti-conception. It's absurd to think that people who ignore 99% of the sex rules of the Roman Catholic Church will suddenly abstain from using a condome b/c the church tells them so.

I think they deserve the blame because using a condom requires effort and a lot of men would far, far rather not. When the church says 'no rubbers damnit!' they undo a huge amount of the good work of the organizations who have been trying to drill into people that this is the only way to stop the spread of AIDS in large parts of the world, and put an extra pressure on the women who have to try and make men comply with their wishes. When a man can turn around and say 'God says its bad' then that is a powerful tool for coercion, especially in third world countries where religious belief is much stronger and much more powerful than it is in the west these days. Bear in mind we're talking about countries where people are still burned and communities wiped out over things like percieved blasphemy.

Having said that, the RCC view on sex is absurd and has nothing to do with christianity, the bible or the christian faith.

Amen.

What I wonder about if pro-choice people can understand pro-life people.
Do you think we're total lunatics, or do you think that we have valid points but that your own arguments are better/more important?

I think one of the things that pro-life people often misunderstand about pro-choice folks is quite how difficult a subject it is for us too. I think most people have had some sort of struggle with it, but many of us end that struggle with the determination that all the issues related to preventing people making that choice add up to a much uglier picture than allowing it. Also speaking just for myself, I could not in all conscience stand in support of a position that forced women to carry a child against their will. I think the rammifications of that are absolutely horrendous, and worst than the termination of a life that is still far from formed. Huge numbers of fetus miscarry naturally anyway, so allowing people to make that choice is not something that fills me with horror.

[MrFun]

But I believe that the vast majority of the time, there are better solutions than abortion to the problem of unwanted pregnancy. Sex ed, contraception, reversible sterilization at birth, etc.

Guess what? Extreme conservatives do not women women to have ANY type of solution - no abortions, no sex ed, and no contraceptives.

[Jaguar]

I think one of the things that pro-life people often misunderstand about pro-choice folks is quite how difficult a subject it is for us too. I think most people have had some sort of struggle with it, but many of us end that struggle with the determination that all the issues related to preventing people making that choice add up to a much uglier picture than allowing it. Also speaking just for myself, I could not in all conscience stand in support of a position that forced women to carry a child against their will. I think the rammifications of that are absolutely horrendous, and worst than the termination of a life that is still far from formed. Huge numbers of fetus miscarry naturally anyway, so allowing people to make that choice is not something that fills me with horror.

Well put. I actually have no idea how many pro-choice folk are like you, and how many are zealots. No idea whatsoever. You and I probably aren't so far apart, but some of the public left intellectuals scare the hell out of me.

[Asher]

I'm fairly certain more "zealots" are pro-life than pro-choice.

Many pro-choicers can't say what they would do in the situation but do not feel they are in a position to choose for others. It's hard to be a zealot with that kind of attitude.

[Lorizael]

Guess what? Extreme conservatives do not women women to have ANY type of solution - no abortions, no sex ed, and no contraceptives.

Yes, extreme conservatives are stupid. What's your point?

[Robert]

@Kentonio: good point, I had not looked at it that way. The man aren't willing to use a rubber, and push their opinion upon the women by claiming that it's the will of God...

I think one of the things that pro-life people often misunderstand about pro-choice folks is quite how difficult a subject it is for us too.

Thanks, that's why I asked. Thanks for answering.

[MrFun]

Yes, extreme conservatives are stupid. What's your point?

My point is . . . . um . . . . well . . . .

I like Pepsi Next!!