It's amazing to me when someone claims to believe in reason and resorts to childish bull**** to try and get others to share their beliefs.
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I want to believe in evolution
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I just made the mistake of reading some of your posts.
Kid
If you want to reach or connect with people, you have to make an effort to understand them. You need to make that effort, you need to listen to them.
JMLast edited by Jon Miller; August 27, 2012, 16:55.Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
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don't listen to these fools DaShi, just close your eyes and I shall sprinkle fairy dust on you and you shall believe in evolutionAny views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..
Look, I just don't anymore, okay?
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Originally posted by Kidicious View PostFirst, you just said "the creation of the universe." Thanks, now I don't feel so dumb for saying that you science guys assume that everything has to be created.
Originally posted by Kidicious View PostAhem. Believing that the universe was created does not require that one not observe the natural world and study it. This has nothing to do with the question of how the universe exists. In fact, if you study the natural world you see the law of cause and effect. That should lead you to ask how can an effect exist whithout a cause. Ok, now we see that sometimes there is no cause (just randomness). This is my point.
Originally posted by Kidicious View PostWhat exactly are you seeing in the natural world which leads you to the belief that it wasn't created?
Incidentally I think I read a while back about the discovery of some faint radiation rings that appear to pre-date the big bang. I'm guessing Jon will know whether that happened or not though.
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Originally posted by Jon Miller View PostI just made the mistake of reading some of your posts.
Kid
If you want to reach or connect with people, you have to make an effort to understand them. You need to make that effort, you need to listen to them.
JMI drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostThings can be created through natural processes. Just not from nothing (as far as we know).
I don't really get your point, how can you use god as a cause and then wave off the inevitable 'what was the cause that created the effect of god' with a casual 'oh he's omnipotent'.
Everything in the natural world leads backwards to something else. We reach the point of the big bang and basically get pretty stuck, as we don't have the tools yet to work any further back. Hopefully one way we will, but when you bring a god into it you're basically just using god of the gaps. You're inventing an infinitely complicated being and saying thats the answer. How is that any more logical than someone saying the universe just appeared one day?
Incidentally I think I read a while back about the discovery of some faint radiation rings that appear to pre-date the big bang. I'm guessing Jon will know whether that happened or not though.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
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Originally posted by Kidicious View PostThen where did the natural processes come from? If we are going to get anywhere here you have to answer my question and stop avoiding it.
Originally posted by Kidicious View PostI didn't say things were created from nothing. I'm saying that the creator of the universe is superior to the universe and everything in it, including the laws that govern it, because he created it.
Originally posted by Kidicious View PostYou seem to not understand what omnipotent means. It means that he is not governed by any laws (natural laws), which means that he doesn't need a cause for himself.
Originally posted by Kidicious View PostAgain, you are just avoiding the problem. I really am at a lose as too why so many of you do this. The Big Bang is a theory, not a fact. Ok, so what if theoretically you could find some cause for the Big Bang. That doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You still have the problem that there must be a first cause, an effect which can't be explained by science. I'm asking you what do you think that is? You seem to have no desire to inquire about that, which is strange for me. How can you just avoid this problem when it is so important? I mean the answer to this question means everything about everything. If you don't even bother to think about it you are seriously misguided.
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostWhich with all due respect is a cop out..I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
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Nice troll DaShi, love your workAny views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..
Look, I just don't anymore, okay?
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Originally posted by Kidicious View PostLet me try this just one more time. You aren't going to find out how things exist with science, because the scientific laws say that every effect has a cause. It is not a cop out to say, how else could things exist if an omnipotent God didn't create it.
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostOf course it's a cop out, you're making a giant assumption that the only way this stuff could have happened is with some magical creator figure who just made it all happen. You completely ignored my point about scale btw, and how the workings of the world at a micro scale are completely unrecognizable to the way we think. You want an easy answer and I'm saying you're probably not going to get one. That doesn't mean there isn't an answer to be had.
Maybe you don't understand what an assumption is. I didn't assume that God created the universe. That is my conslusion. An assumption would be that we can use logic to come to a conclusion regarding this question. I have logically considered the facts. Particularly that observing the universe does not explain how things can come to exist.
I don't know what your point is about scale. You will have to explain to me how that has anything to do with the question of how we exist. Sure, there are atoms, so what?I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
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Originally posted by Kidicious View PostMaybe you don't understand what an assumption is. I didn't assume that God created the universe. That is my conslusion. An assumption would be that we can use logic to come to a conclusion regarding this question. I have logically considered the facts. Particularly that observing the universe does not explain how things can come to exist.
Originally posted by Kidicious View PostI don't know what your point is about scale. You will have to explain to me how that has anything to do with the question of how we exist. Sure, there are atoms, so what?
What I'm saying is that when you ask 'how did it start' you're probably asking a question that is far too simple to really mean anything. For all we know there was no start and will be no end.
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostNo, you're assuming thats the only way it could have happened. That's an assumption.
Think about it more, it's not about atoms existing its about how the world works at an atomic scale. I.E. in a way that is basically completely alien and incredible to us because the scale we think on is shaped by our experiences and how we view the world. The point being that there is no reason why if you scale UP instead of down, that the universe might not work in a very different way to anything we can currently understand or relate to, and its much harder to look up rather than down because for one thing we're looking for things taking place over billions of years. Understanding that stuff is likely to take us centuries/millenia if indeed we ever can.
What I'm saying is that when you ask 'how did it start' you're probably asking a question that is far too simple to really mean anything. For all we know there was no start and will be no end.Last edited by Kidlicious; August 27, 2012, 18:54.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
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Originally posted by Kidicious View PostNo, you don't know what an assumption is. An assumption that is taken for granted, that needs nothing to support it. Like I said, the physical universe can not explain how something can exist. And I am not assuming that that is the only way it could have happened. I'm saying that since it is impossible to have happened (as far as logic dictates) it must be because of a being that can do the impossible. That is the only reasonable conclussion. There aren't anyothers. Your thing about the atoms isn't a conclussion.
Originally posted by Kidicious View PostCan you think of any reason how things can exist other than the one I provided, or are you just going to go on with this irrelevancy?
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