Stay Classy, Europe

[giblets]

See this is exactly the problem. The US puts everything out in the open and we challenge each other. The only reason you know about Trayvon Martin is because it became an international news story and a huge story. Why isn't it a huge story that there are hundreds of neo-Nazis beating up blacks and Jews at soccer matches? Because it is appallingly normal. And you think a policy position against gay marriage is the same as huge mobs of Nazis? Hah, you are an idiot. You do happen to realize that gay marriage is illegal in the majority of Europe too, right? So, by your logic, not only is Europe a racist hellhole because of racism and antisemitism, but there is widespread bigotry against gays as well. Well done.

I love also how when horrible stuff happens in Europe, Europeans will fall over themselves to say that it doesn't represent Europe, just that one small isolated pocket, while when something bad happens in the US they are more then happy to blame the entire country.

1. How do you know it isn't international news? YOU JUST WATCHED A BBC REPORT ON IT. Maybe you should be saying "it's not news in the US because nobody here cares about soccer hooligans in another continent". Maybe it's only idiots in the US who have decided it's the norm in Europe.
2. The US is an actual country, so claiming something reflects badly on the US is far less absurd.
3. People who oppose gay marriage are basically fascists. I think Ben has even claimed that recognition of marriage is supposed to serve the interests of the state. Yes, there are backward parts of Europe like Poland where even abortions are restricted.
4. American racists don't generally put everything out in the open.

[onodera]

Why isn't it a huge story that there are hundreds of neo-Nazis beating up blacks and Jews at soccer matches?

Because no one's beating up blacks and Jews at football matches, let alone hundreds of neo-Nazis.

[OzzyKP]

I'm sorry, Ozzy, but if you think things like the Martin incident are rare, and that we keep things in the open in this country, you are deluding yourself. The rest of your post is on much more solid ground.

But look on the bright side: we're all equally douchebaggy!

The Martin murder certainly isn't unique or exceptional. I never suggested that. Things like that, and worse, happen all over the country. That being the case, things are much better here then across the Atlantic.

1. How do you know it isn't international news? YOU JUST WATCHED A BBC REPORT ON IT. Maybe you should be saying "it's not news in the US because nobody here cares about soccer hooligans in another continent". Maybe it's only idiots in the US who have decided it's the norm in Europe.
2. The US is an actual country, so claiming something reflects badly on the US is far less absurd.
3. People who oppose gay marriage are basically fascists. I think Ben has even claimed that recognition of marriage is supposed to serve the interests of the state. Yes, there are backward parts of Europe like Poland where even abortions are restricted.
4. American racists don't generally put everything out in the open.

1. Yes, a BBC special report. The tone and style of the program firmly suggests to me that they intended to expose a story that no one else was talking about.
2. Oh please. Europe is well on their way to becoming one country by many standards.
3. You are such an idiot. Gay marriage is more legal in the United States then it is in the European Union. If Poland is a backward corner of Europe, then what about France? What about Germany? What about Italy? What about Britain? Gay marriage is illegal. What fascists!
4. That's my ****ing point! It is less acceptable to be racist here, so racists make more efforts to hide their views or tone them down. That is much less the case in Europe.

[giblets]

1. You are engaging in baseless speculation. The tone and style of any report is designed to attract interest.
2. No, and even if Europe was on its way to becoming an actual country, only one of the two countries featured in the report was even a member of the European Union.
3. Most of western Europe, France Germany and the UK included, recognizes same sex partnerships in some way, which is more than can be said for most of the US. So far every referendum on the matter in the US has come down on the side of bigotry. It's only eastern europe that has achieved the level of bigotry that is displayed in a majority of US states by putting constitutional bans on same-sex marriage.. Yeah, I'm totally an idiot if I think Europe has made more progress on that issue.
4. You have no evidence of open racism outside of Poland and Ukraine and even there racists avoided saying things on camera. But don't let your lack of evidence stop you from developing a smug sense of superiority.

[OzzyKP]

1. I have far more base for my speculation then you do for your baseless speculation that European racism is a top story across the continent.
2. Most of the report was in Poland.
3. Now you change your tune. You specifically said gay marriage. Then I called you on your bull**** and you change your argument. Isn't this what people accuse Ben of all the time?
4. Oh please. Look at all the racist parties across Europe. Even in bastions of tolerance like the Netherlands there are significant racist political parties, there is nothing like that here.

Most damning, I think, is this quote from Julian Bond, chairman of the NAACP. He has personally experienced the worst this country has to offer. He marched alongside Dr. King, worked with SNCC, and has been an active leader of the civil rights movement for 50 years. Exposing and confronting racism is his entire life. Yet even he thinks Europe is worse:

Julian Bond, chairman of the NAACP, says, "The big difference here is that the United States has been thinking about and dealing with race since we were founded. These countries in Europe are relative newcomers to the conversation about race. They are much less familiar with confronting their own bigotry."

Until the 20th century, many European countries lacked substantial populations of racial minorities. In recent decades, the influx of immigrants, many from former colonies, has stirred racial tensions on the continent.

Bond adds, "I have always thought that European countries are more bigoted than the U.S."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96949439

[OzzyKP]

4. You have no evidence of open racism outside of Poland and Ukraine and even there racists avoided saying things on camera. But don't let your lack of evidence stop you from developing a smug sense of superiority.

More evidence: a crank preacher in Florida, head of some small 50-person church threatened to burn a couple Korans and it attracted national condemnations from the right and the left. Whereas in the Netherlands, a supposed paragon of European tolerance, a politician proposes to BAN the Koran nationwide and gets over 15% of the vote nationwide.

If Poland is Alabama, then the Netherlands is Massachusetts. How do you think Geert Wilders would fare in Massachusetts? Hell, I bet he'd get less then 15% of the vote IN Alabama.

[giblets]

1. If a British new organization reports on a story in Poland IT IS BY DEFINITION INTERNATIONAL NEWS. I guess you "changed your tune" and decided that it's not international news unless it fits your standard of a "top story across the continent".
2. I'm not going to count the number of minutes it spent talking about Poland and Ukraine. Both countries were featured prominently. If you think Germany, France, the UK and Poland are all part of one country, you're deluded.
3. I have never claimed that no anti-homosexual bigotry exists in Europe. There is obviously less there than there is in the United States, which you seem to be dodging. Isn't this kind of crap what people hate Ben for?
4. European countries generally use a different party system where extremists with a small percentage of the vote can get seats. Durr.
5. Congrats on making an appeal to authority. Yes, I should believe something because a civil rights leader in the US said so.

[giblets]

More evidence: a crank preacher in Florida, head of some small 50-person church threatened to burn a couple Korans and it attracted national condemnations from the right and the left. Whereas in the Netherlands, a supposed paragon of European tolerance, a politician proposes to BAN the Koran nationwide and gets over 15% of the vote nationwide.

If Poland is Alabama, then the Netherlands is Massachusetts. How do you think Geert Wilders would fare in Massachusetts? Hell, I bet he'd get less then 15% of the vote IN Alabama.

In America the racist politicians speak in codes and talk about making black kids serve as janitors in their schools. They have to be able to plausibly deny that they are racist because the two party system means they need votes from reasonable people but there is certainly a constituency for racism that they seek to exploit.

[OzzyKP]

You are saying that Gingrich's plan to allow students to work is "coded racism"? You are so full of ****.

Once again you jump at shadows and ascribe racist intentions to various policies and somehow believe that this "coded language" is somehow worse then bold, upfront and public racism on the other side of the pond.

It is true that as many Europeans as Americans–about half–think immigration is bad for their countries. The big difference is what Europeans are willing to do about it. Just consider French President Nicholas Sarkozy’s farcical effort this fall to expel the hapless Roma.

Yet for most Europeans the big issue is not purse-snatching gypsies but fear and loathing toward the expanding presence of Muslims–who are at least three times as numerous in the E.U. as in the U.S. Over half of Spaniards and Germans, according to Pew, hold negative views of Muslims. So do roughly 40% of the French. In contrast, only 23% of Americans share this sentiment.

More disturbing, Europe is actually putting these ethnic hostilities into law. An early sign came this winter, when the usually phlegmatic Swiss voted to prohibit the building of new minarets. More recently a ban on burqas – the admittedly unattractive female body suits favored by some orthodox Muslims – passed in France, home to Europe’s largest Muslim community. The same measure is now being considered in Spain.

These actions reflect a broad, and deepening, stream of European public opinion. A recent Pew survey found that over 80% of the French support banning the burqa, as do over 70% of Germans and a large majority of Spaniards and British.

In contrast, nearly two-thirds of Americans find the burqa ban distasteful. Burqas don’t exactly stir admiring glances in the shopping mall, but few Amercians think we need to ban them. The basic ideal of “don’t tread on me” means “don’t tread on them” as well – at least until they start blowing themselves up at Wal-mart.

...

Muslim attitudes in Europe are not exactly helpful either. European Muslims often seem more interested in breaking the national mold than adding to its contours. More than 80% of British Muslims, for example, identify themselves as Muslims first before being British. This is true of nearly 70% of Muslims in Spain or Germany. Similarly, up to 40% of Britain’s Islamic population believe that terrorist attacks on both Americans and their fellow Britons are justified.

...

More important still, more than half of Muslims identify themselves as Americans first, a far higher percentage than in the various countries of Western Europe. More than four in five are registered to vote, a sure sign of civic involvement. Almost three-quarters, according to a Pew study, say they have never been discriminated against–something that is definitely not the case in Europe where a majority, according to Pew, complain of discrimination.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2010/10/18/whos-racist-now-europes-increasing-intolerance

[dannubis]

Ozzy, grow up.

[dannubis]

See this is exactly the problem. The US puts everything out in the open and we challenge each other. The only reason you know about Trayvon Martin is because it became an international news story and a huge story. Why isn't it a huge story that there are hundreds of neo-Nazis beating up blacks and Jews at soccer matches? Because it is appallingly normal. And you think a policy position against gay marriage is the same as huge mobs of Nazis? Hah, you are an idiot. You do happen to realize that gay marriage is illegal in the majority of Europe too, right? So, by your logic, not only is Europe a racist hellhole because of racism and antisemitism, but there is widespread bigotry against gays as well. Well done.

I love also how when horrible stuff happens in Europe, Europeans will fall over themselves to say that it doesn't represent Europe, just that one small isolated pocket, while when something bad happens in the US they are more then happy to blame the entire country.

Epic fail in comprehensive reading.

You said there was almost no bigotry / racism in US while being rampant in Europe.
I gave the most glaring counter examples of why you should be very humble when speaking about other regions' problems.

The only idiot kid I see on the block is you.

[OzzyKP]

So people who believe the US is less racist than Europe are idiots? Got it.

[Hueij]

Dannubis, let it go. It's clear that our Ussian friends have no clue about the world outside the Ussian borders, with the possible exception of Guy. Let them...

[BlackCat]

So people who believe the US is less racist than Europe are idiots? Got it.

It took some time but glad to see that the message got through

[BlackCat]

Dannubis, let it go. It's clear that our Ussian friends have no clue about the world outside the Ussian borders, with the possible exception of Guy. Let them...

Don't be so harsh. Gribbler seems to both have a brain and able to use it.