I had no idea Scott Walker was so popular

[C0ckney]

Only one of those groups could possibly be considered an authority, and I doubt you have an accurate survey of them anyway. The fact is that we are unlikely to ever be able to directly estimate the effects of the minimum wage from econometric data.

the low pay commission, whose report i quoted, was created specifically to look at the effects of the minimum wage in the UK and to make recommendations about various apsects of it going forward. so whatever you think of my views, the low pay commission is likely to have an accurate survey of the academic opinion on the matter, because it is their job to do so.

on the political side, which i don't expect to be aware of, the conservative party were dead set against the minimum wage, in fact they used very similar arguments to the ones you put forward. yet now they support the minimum wage. i think it's reasonable to say that if a political party opposed something and then there was good evidence that that thing was causing harm, the party would use that, rather than change its mind.

Oh, right, we can only create a political environment receptive to helping poor people by doing a bunch of things that don't actually help poor people.

congratulations, you have not only failed to answer the question but also provided a ridiculous assertion.

[C0ckney]

Why wouldn't a society with more equality of consumption not be such a "more equal" society?

i never said it wouldn't, but how can you have more equality of consumption if incomes differ wildly.

There are fairly dramatic differences between them in other respects - GDP/capita, hours worked, etc. - so it's a reasonable proposition.

i don't see how if, for example, because french people work less on average than american people, that would make their incomes more or less 'naturally' unequal. there would need to be a more direct link.

[regexcellent]

Anyone want to bet on how many times Kuci will pwn c0ckney before he gets tired of it?

[kentonio]

Not really.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...+united+states

Don't believe everything you read, the cost of living in Norway is extremely high.

[kentonio]

Only one of those groups could possibly be considered an authority, and I doubt you have an accurate survey of them anyway. The fact is that we are unlikely to ever be able to directly estimate the effects of the minimum wage from econometric data.

This feels like you're trying to have your cake and eat it. On one hand you're arguing basically against the need for a minimum wage and saying that it has negative effects, but when you're shown a country that has done this in practise without negative effects you start hedging.

[Kuciwalker]

edit: this is a response to #224

OK, so your support for this policy rests on a long chain of uncertain beliefs:

1) Workers are systematically underpaid and so forcing their wages up won't create unemployment (why, then, do we already have so much unemployment?). This might be true.

2) Laws forcing their wages up are relatively easier to pass. Maybe, maybe not. Given the controversy surrounding the minimum wage and other labor regulations (and unions!) this probably isn't as true as you think it is.

3) Laws providing something like an EITC or guaranteed minimum income are relatively difficult to pass, even/especially when paired with laws that remove inefficient regulations at the same time. There appears to be little solid evidence for this position. You shouldn't be very confident in it.

4) The regulations we have are actually effective at pushing up wages, and aren't systematically avoided whenever they would actually impeded hiring. We see some evidence that they are.

If any of these beliefs is substantially false, the case for using regulations and unions to push up wages collapses.

[regexcellent]

Don't believe everything you read, the cost of living in Norway is extremely high.

You dumbass, do you know what Wolfram Alpha is? That's the raw data for cost of living.

[Kuciwalker]

This feels like you're trying to have your cake and eat it. On one hand you're arguing basically against the need for a minimum wage and saying that it has negative effects, but when you're shown a country that has done this in practise without negative effects you start hedging.

No, we're shown countries that have done this without negative effects that we can measure and disaggregate from everything else that is going on.

[kentonio]

You dumbass, do you know what Wolfram Alpha is? That's the raw data for cost of living.

Yes, I'm obviously a dumbass for basing the cost of living on the fact I used to live there and not on data via an internet link. I am slain.

[kentonio]

No, we're shown countries that have done this without negative effects that we can measure and disaggregate from everything else that is going on.

So there could have been terrible effects but some awesome good **** might have happened at exactly the same time which magically counterbalanced it?

[regexcellent]

Yes, you are a dumbass for refusing to acknowledge many things in this thread, principally Kuciwalker's continued pwning of your arguments for minimum wage, but your denial of the fact that the consumer price index demonstrates that the cost of a basic basket of goods is roughly the same in Norway and in the United States. The fact that you used to live there doesn't change reality.

[kentonio]

Yes, you are a dumbass for refusing to acknowledge many things in this thread, principally Kuciwalker's continued pwning of your arguments for minimum wage, but your denial of the fact that the consumer price index demonstrates that the cost of a basic basket of goods is roughly the same in Norway and in the United States. The fact that you used to live there doesn't change reality.

Except that same website also shows data for the UK which I bothered to run against Norway before posting. Having lived in both countries I can confidently say its full of **** re cost of living. The cost of the most basic items in Norway is way above comparable levels in the UK including as a proportion of income.

[giblets]

This poll is not recent, but it shows that the last time minimum wage increased, there was broad public support:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/20710/Public-Solidly-Supports-Increase-Minimum-Wage.aspx

Politically speaking, raising the minimum wage is obviously low hanging fruit.

[Dinner]

I'm far from a business owner and yet am making plenty of actual money. I would make substantially less in every other developed nation.

The median American worker earns much more money than the median worker in other developed nations.

I'd say I would make some what more in Canada, Australia, or Saudi Arabia if the American tax system would allow me to do so but the double taxation problem makes that not worth while or more likely a wash (depending on actual income levels). I'm still doing very well in the US but could make more if I moved to a place like Alberta but then I'd have the problem of both Canada's IRS and the US IRS trying to pillage my earnings. The US only exempts something like the first $70,000 in foreign earned income from US income taxes making it difficult unless you renounce US citizenship (something I'm not prepared to do).

[Kuciwalker]

i never said it wouldn't, but how can you have more equality of consumption if incomes differ wildly.

1) What you are calling "income" is actually a combination of both wage income and incorrectly measured capital income, which are very different things.

2) "Income" generally excludes the effects of government transfer payments and in-kind government services (e.g. medical care).

3) People with higher incomes tend to save much of it rather than consume it. These savings are then taxed repeatedly through taxes on capital gains and investment income. A lot of the remaining savings are never actually drawn down by the savers, and are left to charity, etc.

4) Think about it. Look at the lifetime incomes of super-wealthy. Human beings are just incapable of actually spending that kind of money on personal consumption. What exactly is Warren Buffet going to do with his billions, construct a mansion on the Moon?

i don't see how if, for example, because french people work less on average than american people, that would make their incomes more or less 'naturally' unequal. there would need to be a more direct link.

The point wasn't a causal relation; it was that lots of other things like income inequality vary widely between developed nations, it seems plausible that income inequality would too.