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Social Security and Medicare are destroying America

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  • Social Security and Medicare are destroying America

    And yet some of you still don't understand why I hate the Baby Boomers...

    Here is Evans, Kotlikoff, and Phillips making the case that transfers to the elderly, such as Social Security and Medicare, have dramatically lowered the US savings rate, the investment rate and real wage growth:

    In the lifecycle model, the young, because they have longer remaining lifespans than the old, have much lower propensities to consume out of their remaining lifetime resources. This prediction is strongly confirmed for the US by Gokhale et al (1996).

    Hence, in taking from young savers and giving to old spenders, which Uncle Sam has spent six decades doing on a massive scale, the lifecycle model predicts a major decline in US net national saving associated with a major rise in the absolute and relative consumption of the elderly. This is precisely what the data show.

    In 1965, the US net national saving was 15.6% of net national income. Last year, it was just 0.9%. And, according to Gokhale et al (1996) and Lee and Mason (2012), the secular demise in US saving has coincided with a spectacular rise in the consumption of older Americans relative to that of younger Americans.

    As Feldstein and Horioka (1980) document, US net domestic saving tracks US net national saving. Hence, postwar intergenerational redistribution has not only lowered net national saving; it has also reduced net domestic investment, from 14.0% of national income in 1965 to just 3.6% in 2011. This decline in the rate of net domestic investment is, no doubt, playing a major role in the slow growth in US wages. Indeed, the level of private-sector average real earnings per hour, exclusive of fringe benefits, is lower today than it was 40 years ago.

    We call this America’s “fiscal child abuse”. If it continues, it will no doubt shortly drive the national saving rate, which was negative 1.2% in 2009, into permanent negative territory and further reduce net domestic investment and prospects for real wage growth.


    Here is Evans, Kotlikoff, and Phillips making the case that transfers to the elderly, such as Social Security and Medicare, have dramatically lowered the US savings rate, the investment rate and real wage growth: In the lifecycle model, the young, because they have longer remaining lifespans than the old, have much lower propensities to consume out […]


    Can anyone here seriously defend the transfer of massive amounts of money from the young to the old? What benefit are we supposed to be getting from Social Security and Medicare that makes up for all the downsides?

    Spoiler:
    If you're a Boomer and reading this, **** you.

  • #2
    The benefit we are supposed to be getting is a safety net when we're older. Of course we (anyone who isn't retiring in the next two decades) aren't getting that as things currently stand, which is why SS and Medicare need to be changed to something sustainable.

    As for domestic investment and wage growth, the author seems to be confusing cause and effect to come to an unrelated conclusion. Due to globalization we compete on labor and where to invest far more today than 40 years ago. It's only natural that we would domestically invest a lower percentage of income and have more competition when it comes to wages. This is definitely a good thing in aggregate.

    Also, I am not convinced that spending is any more/less beneficial to the economy than saving/investing. Whether I put $5 in the bank, $5 into stock of a food processing company, or $5 into a bag of chips shouldn't be much of a difference for the economy. (Relative to the size of the transaction.) I would say if you look just at that one transaction, it would be better for the economy (right now) for me to spend the $5, as we are suffering from a lack of demand for goods and services. We have more capacity and inventories than we put to use right now.

    Of course once you follow the money down the rabbit hole, there's little to no difference between the options.

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    • #3
      If you see it as looking after older people rather than transfering wealth to them then it makes perfect sense. If you leave the old to suffer and die in poverty, then you have a broken archaic society that people don't want to live in.

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      • #4
        Social Security and Medicare are quite obviously designed to transfer wealth to the old. They would be means tested if they were merely safety nets meant to prevent the old from suffering and dying in poverty.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Tupac Shakur View Post
          Social Security and Medicare are quite obviously designed to transfer wealth to the old. They would be means tested if they were merely safety nets meant to prevent the old from suffering and dying in poverty.
          Either that or the Australian Labor Party here are a bunch of fatcat capitalists sending the elderly to early graves and creating a "broken archaic society that people don't want to live in" which is basically among the top few livable countries in the world. So yes, kentonio needs to feed his bizarre little fantasy world where the American Democrats are the Wisest People in All of the Earth, and means testing is pretty darn normal. Superannuation doesn't hurt either.
          "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

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          • #6
            The Australian system is a good one. I'd be happy to see America emulate it.

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            • #7
              Means testing pensions and compulsory super are on my list of smart things the ALP have done. Their more recent performance is abysmal though.
              "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

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              • #8
                Does taxing people and dumping the money into a trust fund really destroy savings? If we could just find a way to cut benefits now instead of later (like implementing means testing) I think we'd be fine.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tupac Shakur View Post
                  Social Security and Medicare are quite obviously designed to transfer wealth to the old. They would be means tested if they were merely safety nets meant to prevent the old from suffering and dying in poverty.
                  If they were means tested, it would mean that the young either pay upfront, or pay out of a prospective inheritance*. Either way, the young pay.....

                  *An inheritance built up by ripping money off the young to begin with.
                  One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tupac Shakur View Post
                    Social Security and Medicare are quite obviously designed to transfer wealth to the old. They would be means tested if they were merely safety nets meant to prevent the old from suffering and dying in poverty.
                    I have no problem at all with means testing, I care about the people who are literally unable to afford healthcare they need and to support themselves to a reasonable level of existence. Healthcare should be universal because its just cheaper and more efficient all around, but if you have someone with a large income, I don't see any need for the state to provide payments to help support them. Then again Social Security was built on the promise of a payout for a pay in wasn't it? I don't think it'd be fair to change the playing field for existing contributors, but building a new mandatory means tested system seems perfectly reasonable for future generations.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dauphin View Post
                      If they were means tested, it would mean that the young either pay upfront, or pay out of a prospective inheritance*. Either way, the young pay.....

                      *An inheritance built up by ripping money off the young to begin with.
                      The young always pay, which doesn't seem unfair if they are paying to ensure that they have a safety net for their own senior years.

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                      • #12
                        I'd at least like to be able to opt out of the government's retirement pyramid schemes. I can handle my savings MUCH better than a bunch of crooked politicians.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kentonio View Post
                          The young always pay, which doesn't seem unfair if they are paying to ensure that they have a safety net for their own senior years.
                          Therein you see the problem. Paying off old investors with young investors money does not ensure a safety net. Acutely apparent when the ratio of old to young has been increasing meaning the amount going in is decreasing and the amount going out is increasing. Of course, stem the problem by increasing the young's contribution to ever higher requirements and/or decreasing the entitlement (either by amount of coverage, such as health cover, or year entitlement starts, for say pensions). But then you defeat the whole point for those who have been paying in in good faith for the past X years - their safety net is no longer as safe as they expected and/or they are paying more and more for that 'benefit'.
                          One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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                          • #14
                            I looked for an interactive social security thing on the internet and found this:

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by kentonio View Post
                              I have no problem at all with means testing, I care about the people who are literally unable to afford healthcare they need and to support themselves to a reasonable level of existence. Healthcare should be universal because its just cheaper and more efficient all around, but if you have someone with a large income, I don't see any need for the state to provide payments to help support them. Then again Social Security was built on the promise of a payout for a pay in wasn't it? I don't think it'd be fair to change the playing field for existing contributors, but building a new mandatory means tested system seems perfectly reasonable for future generations.
                              For existing contributors? So you don't want any changes to take effect for at least another 40 years, by which point the social security trust fund will have been devoured by baby boomers?

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