Why isn't this murder?

[kentonio]

First I'm inherently dishonest, now I'm inherently racist. How many fantasies do you need to feed for you to be in the right here? How about you actually cite an example of me lying, or of me being racist.

You've proven yourself repeatedly intellectually dishonest with your repeated raising of conspiracy theories that you know damn well are nonsensical (such as the President apparently supporting the New Black Panthers, a tiny extremist organization that not even the Black Panthers support) based on 'evidence' so flimsy that a child would find it stupid. Instead of debating a simple point, you resort to your normal tactic of posting book length blocks of text which posit endless strawmen, inane conspiracies and frankly bizarre comparisons, in an attempt to mentally batter the person disagreeing with you into numb submission.

As for you being a racist, it's possible that I'm reading too much into your lack of ability to see how the oppression of black people could have profound effects on blacks to this day. I also had some memory of you pulling the 'reverse racism' card in the past, my apologies if I was thinking of someone else.

More accurately, white supremacism is part of the explanation for why black supremacism exists. It is not the only explanation or reason.

Who said it was?

Now, you've either changed your position here or you haven't. Are "American whites" to blame, or are American "white supremacists" to blame? The two are not one and the same. They never were, and they're certainly not right now.

Except I never said they were the same, thus you're just trying to create another strawman. If you want to agrue against my point then just do it on the basis of collective guilt being an abhorrent concept for goodness sake.

It is plain racist to suppose that every American white is responsible for, and thus cannot justly complain of, black supremacism. It is precisely this latter idea that is implicit in your statement that it is "laughable" for "American whites" to "squeal" about "horrible things" that "civil rights leaders" say.

And again we see that little term you seem so fond of 'black supremacism'. Except that the civil rights leaders rarely engaged in black supremacism, and its a pretty rare phenomena in the US to the best of my knowledge. I wonder why you'd use that term instead of just racism?

In retrospect I fully concede the likelihood you did not think this idea through to its logical conclusion, and thus, are not an open, explicit and coherent advocate for, say, refusing to enforce the law against the victims of black supremacist violence and intimidation.

Strawman AND intellectual dishonesty in just one (exremely overlong) sentence. Good work.

You have also written that the actions of black supremacists are "comprehensible"

No I haven't.

Well, of course they are comprehensible. Black supremacists commit racist actions because they are racist. They grew up in a political culture borne of slavery, so they were often ill-educated and therefore prone to accepting conspiratorial or nonsensical explanations for how the world worked. And in the face of racial intimidation the best explanation they could come up with was that everyone was agains them; they cast about for the usual victims: migrants, Jews, Whites, everyone. The New Black Panthers are simply the logical outgrowth of black supremacism--borne, in turn, of white supremacism. But all that doesn't matter. What matters is that black supremacism exists and that it must be combatted; and that those who excuse its existence and refuse to condemn its leaders must be named and shamed.

Wow.

Further, the idea that supremacists of any colour are not entitled to the protection of the law is simply a recipe for vigilantism, mob justice and racially inspired violence.

This would be the idea that you invented earlier in your post and then pretended was the one you were arguing against, right?

And, by necessary implication, I do not doubt that they also thought somewhere along these lines (I do not quote from you, but merely rephrase as necessary):
"For American whites to squeal about how terribly racist it is for those black supremacists like the New Black Panthers leaders threaten to kill every white person alive, or perhaps plant pipe bombs in front of stores owned by Asians, is absolutely laughable. They're fighting for black people. Why shouldn't we march with them? Why should we take legal action to prevent them from walking about with nightsticks, calling out threats against whites, next to polling booths? Wounds run deep."

Yes the American white majority is in desperate danger from the black community. I'm amazed liberal blacks aren't arranging a million man march for the poor oppressed white folk as we speak.

Here's a hint, this stuff is why you look like a racist.

[kentonio]

Is that what its called, "advancing the arguement". Funny I thought it was akin to the retort most commonly used by my 5 year old daughter when the inevitable claims of 'she was mean to me' were the basis for her "understandably" pushing her sister down a flight of stairs.

I failed as a parent that day for not realizing that it was a reasonable expectation of my daughters behavior and should have seen the brilliance of her logic and ability to 'advance the arguement' accordingly. Additional failures that day likely are as follows:

1) A rush to see if my older daughter was severely injured. Heck she was priveledged by virtue of birth she gets what she deserves. (she after all was stronger and more experienced than the 5 year old)
2) Failure to chastise my older daughter for her incindiary behaviour that led to the clearly understandable and justified behavior of my 5 yr old
3) Failure to tell my older daughter to stop the whining and playing the martyr. Clearly the suck it up you have nothing to whine about makes things so much better.
4) it goes of course without saying that since I punished my 5 year old for inappropriate behavior, the clearly false premise of minimal social expectations should have be voided when faced with 'understandable' circumstances. Call social services immediately.

Complex societal issues are of course analogous with raising a child. In much the same way of course as running the economy of one of the worlds largest countries is the same as balancing a household budget. Am I doing it right yet? #TeaParty

[giblets]

Complex societal issues are of course analogous with raising a child. In much the same way of course as running the economy of one of the worlds largest countries is the same as balancing a household budget. Am I doing it right yet? #TeaParty

It was a good metaphor for how dumb your position is. Racism is never justified.

[kentonio]

It was a good metaphor for how dumb your position is. Racism is never justified.

When did I say it was justified?

[giblets]

When did I say it was justified?

Then what exactly is your position?

[giblets]

Do blacks in America have more reason/justification to be racist than whites? Yes, I'd say they certainly do. Does that make it right? No, not really, but its certainly more understandable. I do find it especially telling that you don't seem to understand why that might be the case though.

Answer this for me, would you find it at least understandable if the Jews felt uneasy/hostile towards the German people?

It would seem that if your ancestors have been mistreated, you believe racism becomes more justifiable than it otherwise would be.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Complex societal issues are of course analogous with raising a child. In much the same way of course as running the economy of one of the worlds largest countries is the same as balancing a household budget. Am I doing it right yet? #TeaParty

woosh.

Of course the issues are complex, and yet you found a way to distill the arguements down to those a 5 year old makes. Congrats.

After all that hard work, methinks its your nap time.

[kentonio]

It would seem that if your ancestors have been mistreated, you believe racism becomes more justifiable than it otherwise would be.

Do they have more reason than whites? I don't see how the answer to that can be anything other than yes. Is it actually justified? Possibly not, although its certainly understandable. Think of the times during and after slavery, how could black parents not tell their children to fear white people and act towards them in a certain way? By subjecting an entire race to slavery and racism, you basically ensure that the have to frame their own narrative in similar terms. As I said in a previous post, hopefully in a few more generations that will have gone away, but while people are still around who lived through segregation it seems almost offensively naive to catigate blacks for occasional racist expression.

You can obviously deny collective guilt, but when blacks communities today are living with the consequences of their ancestors treatment in terms of wealth and opportunity that becomes a hard argument to support.

[rah]

But in balance, what you say would have more impact, if the generation that did the oppressing was us. Most whites alive today had nothing to do with that oppression. Yes, there are those that still are quite racist but in general that's not the case. Just as you call their fear of white people possibly justified you have to consider how possibly justified those of us that say there is no merit to that, since we have never participated in any oppression.

[giblets]

Do they have more reason than whites? I don't see how the answer to that can be anything other than yes. Is it actually justified? Possibly not, although its certainly understandable. Think of the times during and after slavery, how could black parents not tell their children to fear white people and act towards them in a certain way? By subjecting an entire race to slavery and racism, you basically ensure that the have to frame their own narrative in similar terms. As I said in a previous post, hopefully in a few more generations that will have gone away, but while people are still around who lived through segregation it seems almost offensively naive to catigate blacks for occasional racist expression.

You can obviously deny collective guilt, but when blacks communities today are living with the consequences of their ancestors treatment in terms of wealth and opportunity that becomes a hard argument to support.

No, it doesn't. There is no such thing as a good reason to be racist. Judging an entire group that people don't choose to be a part of on the basis of what certain members of that group did is disgusting and you are despicable for defending it.

[kentonio]

But in balance, what you say would have more impact, if the generation that did the oppressing was us. Most whites alive today had nothing to do with that oppression. Yes, there are those that still are quite racist but in general that's not the case. Just as you call their fear of white people possibly justified you have to consider how possibly justified those of us that say there is no merit to that, since we have never participated in any oppression.

It's completely justified to think theres no merit to it. I've never kept a slave, or discriminated against a minority or done any of the other things that caused that fear. Individually every one of us who hasn't done any of those things has a right to feel we are being unfairly judged, but I have a lot more sympathy for the people who suffered the real injustices that cost them their lifes and freedom than I do for our hurt feelings. It hasn't been long enough yet for us to start getting preachy about equality, we're still at the stage of actually proving we can manage equality ourselves.

No, it doesn't. There is no such thing as a good reason to be racist. Judging an entire group that people don't choose to be a part of on the basis of what certain members of that group did is disgusting and you are despicable for defending it.

Enjoy the pure moral ground Saint Gribbler, it might not bear any resemblance to reality but it sure does look pretty up there.

[giblets]

It's completely justified to think theres no merit to it. I've never kept a slave, or discriminated against a minority or done any of the other things that caused that fear. Individually every one of us who hasn't done any of those things has a right to feel we are being unfairly judged, but I have a lot more sympathy for the people who suffered the real injustices that cost them their lifes and freedom than I do for our hurt feelings. It hasn't been long enough yet for us to start getting preachy about equality, we're still at the stage of actually proving we can manage equality ourselves.



Enjoy the pure moral ground Saint Gribbler, it might not bear any resemblance to reality but it sure does look pretty up there.

Enjoy having sympathy for racists and passively condoning unequal treatment of human beings.

[rah]

but I have a lot more sympathy for the people who suffered the real injustices that cost them their lifes and freedom than I do for our hurt feelings. It hasn't been long enough yet for us to start getting preachy about equality, we're still at the stage of actually proving we can manage equality ourselves.

Almost all of them are dead. It has been long enough. The more we look back the more we can't move forward. There will always be some extreme racists, waiting for there to be none will never happen.

[kentonio]

Almost all of them are dead. It has been long enough. The more we look back the more we can't move forward. There will always be some extreme racists, waiting for there to be none will never happen.

The time will come, and already we have far less tolerance for any forms of racism than say 20 years ago which is positive. It started in this thread though because of a reference to Sharpton, and he did experience it. He gets a pass on some things that an 18 year old would not. It's just not a black and white situation.

[DinoDoc]

What aspect of past racism excuses Sharpton's involvement in the Tawana Brawley case?