Fair is fair . . . Georgia Democrats propose an anti-vasectomy bill

[kentonio]

The irony Jon is that there are hardly any people who want completely uncontrolled abortion, but people like you force the debate to become to polarized that neither side will work towards a compromise. How likely do you think people are to want to engage in discussion when you call them baby murderers?

It's especially ridiculous considering you said in this very thread that you would allow early term abortions anyway!

[Aeson]

The doubt is mostly invented by those who wish for abortion to continue. For there to be no restrictions on their right to abortion.

Definitely not.

First, the extremists on the other end are saying there should be no abortion allowed at all. They're trying to "invent" doubt in the opposite direction. It happens on both extremes. (It also happens in the middle when people pretend there is no doubt, which itself can be "inventing" doubt in the reality which is that there is doubt.)

Second, we simply do not have the technological sophistication to answer the question of when a glob of cells becomes a person deserving of rights. You and I would both say ~"detectable brain activity" IIRC. It's not a fact though, it's a preference ... an educated guess. We don't understand what sentience is, we can't reproduce it in a laboratory to analyze it. So there's no proof to base that preference on.

[Jon Miller]

I have had to live in a society that kills innocent babies all my life.

Are you saying that once I say 'oh, well, it isn't important, abortion isn't important' and so on, that suddenly pro-abortion activists will want to sit down and ban late term abortions where the mother's life is not in immediate risk?

JM

[Jon Miller]

Second, we simply do not have the technological sophistication to answer the question of when a glob of cells becomes a person deserving of rights. You and I would both say ~"detectable brain activity" IIRC. It's not a fact though, it's a preference ... an educated guess. We don't understand what sentience is, we can't reproduce it in a laboratory to analyze it. So there's no proof to base that preference on.

I did say mostly.

I would 'stand behind' it as science just like I stand behind the 14 billion y-o universe.

Doesn't mean it couldn't be wrong, just saying that this is what the evidence is pointing towards.

JM

[Aeson]

It's perfectly fine to believe it's the best explanation. I think it is myself. (And so would be slightly on the "pro-life" side of where the laws are at right now.) But when you get to accusations of murder and forcing dramatic changes in other people's lives ... it comes with a burden of proof much different than if you're just saying the universe is ~14b years old.

[kentonio]

Are you saying that once I say 'oh, well, it isn't important, abortion isn't important' and so on, that suddenly pro-abortion activists will want to sit down and ban late term abortions where the mother's life is not in immediate risk?

Oh stop with the hyperbole already. If you want to reach an agreement then you don't run around screaming that half the population are baby murderers.

[Jon Miller]

Half the population supports baby murderers.

Just quit your support? Isn't it easier if it is something atrocious?

JM

[Dinner]

No one is supporting baby murders. They support the vacuuming out of nondescript cell globules which may or may not be viable any way.

[kentonio]

Half the population supports baby murderers.

Just quit your support? Isn't it easier if it is something atrocious?

JM

Yeah, hows that working out for you? You think that alienating half the population is ever going to get you any closer to what you want? All it does is piss people off, and pissed off people don't try and compromise, they just become even more fixed on their position or turn even further away out of anger.

[Dr Strangelove]

The Virginia legislature decided to table the "Personhood" bill, which means it won't be brought up again until 2013. (Our legislature is in session only 3 months out of the year.) OTOH it decided to abolish the mandate for the HPV vaccine.

[Hauldren Collider]

McDonnell

[Jon Miller]

Yeah, hows that working out for you? You think that alienating half the population is ever going to get you any closer to what you want? All it does is piss people off, and pissed off people don't try and compromise, they just become even more fixed on their position or turn even further away out of anger.

It was definitely right for the nonNazi Germans to not say anything!



That is always what causes change in society. Not saying anything, keeping your head down, going with the flow.

JM

[Hauldren Collider]

Black people should have never tried for civil rights. What if they'd alienated whites and then they'd never have gotten what they wanted!

[MRT144]

I have had to live in a society that kills innocent babies all my life.

Are you saying that once I say 'oh, well, it isn't important, abortion isn't important' and so on, that suddenly pro-abortion activists will want to sit down and ban late term abortions where the mother's life is not in immediate risk?

JM

I have to live in a society where people use the term babies to describe zygotes.

[MRT144]

Though not according to some strident proponents of abortion rights. Which is why I think the either/or dichotomy needs to be re-examined.

I think a lot of abortion rights folks are terrified of any sort of clawback.