If we legislate laws in U.S. based on the Bible . . .

[Imran Siddiqui]

Agreement!!

Thread Over!

[DaShi]

So to be clear this is an indictment on GOP obstructionism, where one chamber has a majority GOP and the other chamber is majority Dem. The Senate (run by Dems) has by far and away the worst record of legislative achievement.

Prior to this session the Dems held both chambers and were unable to pass key signatory legislation such as card check and cap and trade and barely got health care through, let alone the real constitutional responsibility of congress to establish an annual budget.

I suspect the real issue is not obstructionism but Harry Reid incompetence.

Actually, the stronger evidence is on Boehner's incompetence. While the dems did drop the ball on the budget, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

[Kidlicious]

You're the one being the idiot, because you still do not understand what I'm talking about.

Um ... no. I know the difference between voting against gay marriage and voting for stoning adulterers. You don't. Good bye.

[MrFun]

Okay, you're retarded then. I have not said anywhere that voting against gay marriage and voting for stoning adulterers is the same thing.

[Kidlicious]

Good. We agree then.
The matter is settled.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I said Thread Over

[MrFun]

no

[molly bloom]

That's great and all,

An understatement with regard to the separation of Church and state accomplished by the likes of Jefferson. Still....

...but if you are going to be denigrating Martin Luther King,

Where did I denigrate him ? Could you point out that part ?

I'd also suggest that King was influenced by Mahatma Gandhi's thoughts, philosophy and principles- satyagraha and ahimsa. Gandhi wasn't noticeably Christian.

[kentonio]

That's great and all, but if you are going to be denigrating Martin Luther King, Jr. because he brought God into the public conversation, as an integral part of his non-violent movement for civil rights, then you are just being silly.

What is wrong with questioning/criticising aspects of a positive historical figure?

Yes, almost everything you think is a 'religious belief'.

I usually enjoy your posts, but this one was nonsense. Worse, its arrogant religious nonsense.

That stuff about the bible not supporting slavery because the slaves get freed at some point was also pretty wacky.

[molly bloom]

Molly Bloom's argument against MLK relies on quoting a slave owner.

Stay classy, London

It isn't an argument 'against' Martin Luther King at all. I have no idea how you reach that conclusion.

In the past I've referred to Jefferson's own (mental and philosophical) difficulties reconciling his ownership of slaves (and the likes of Washington owning slaves too) while supposedly fighting against British 'tyranny'- I've even quoted Dr. Johnson on the bitter irony of slaveowners protesting against oppressive laws.

I'm well aware of the part freed slaves played in the War of Independence too- on the British side.

Stay classy, London

How terribly witty.

It's his ideas on the separation of Church and state that are of interest.

[Felch]

An understatement with regard to the separation of Church and state accomplished by the likes of Jefferson.

How were his private letters an accomplishment?

[Imran Siddiqui]

An understatement with regard to the separation of Church and state accomplished by the likes of Jefferson. Still....

... has absolutely no bearing on King in the slightest.

Where did I denigrate him ? Could you point out that part ?

When you question someone's motivations for doing something, that is usually a sign of denigration. Especially when their motivations are a strong and essential part of their character and being.

I'd also suggest that King was influenced by Mahatma Gandhi's thoughts, philosophy and principles- satyagraha and ahimsa. Gandhi wasn't noticeably Christian.

As King, said (paraphrasing): Jesus through Gandhi. As said, doesn't change the fact that King was motivated in his campaigns for civil rights and against poverty by his Christian faith.

[Jon Miller]

And Gandhi was heavily influenced by Tolstoy, in particularly his Christian ideas.

He was a great admirer, and said:
"Oh, I don't reject Christ. I love Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ."
“If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today,”

The second part of the first quote I think is the great shame of Christians for the last 2000 years, too often true.

Being fairly pluralistic liberal religiously, he shared many of his religious views with liberal Christians today ("Every one of us is a son of God and capable of doing what Jesus did, if we but endeavor to express the Divine in us." "All the great religions are fundamentally equal." "God wills the salvation of all people in their respective faiths.").

JM

[molly bloom]

How were his private letters an accomplishment?

Are you really this dense, or is it a put on ?

Certainly the thoughts and experiences that went into his communications were an accomplishment. He is still one of the great intellects of American politics- but then given the competition he had in the 19th and 20th Centuries, that's hardly surprising...

[molly bloom]

... has absolutely no bearing on King in the slightest.

It was more directed at the offhand way you dismissed the magnitude of Jefferson's achievement in getting god/s & religion out of State sponsorship.

When you question someone's motivations for doing something...

So the short answer is, that having brought up my alleged 'denigration', you can't actually provide any proof of it.

Could you also point out where I questioned Martin Luther King's motivation for taking up the civil rights' struggle ?

In any case, to disagree with part of someone's public expression of their motivation is not to denigrate them. Sorry, but you're simply mistaken in suggesting I've denigrated him in any way.

Jesus through Gandhi.

Yeah, especially the 'render unto Caesar bit'....

He read this in Gandhi's writings:

: Through our pain we will make them see their injustice.

and was also influenced by Karl Marx:

... Marx had raised some basic questions. I was deeply concerned from my early teen days about the gulf between superfluous wealth and abject poverty, and my reading of Marx made me ever more conscious of this gulf.

The Autobiography of Martin Luther King

and from the same source:

It was in this Gandhian emphasis on love and nonviolence that I discovered the method for social reform that I had been seeking.

So to paraphrase what you said:

King was motivated in his campaigns for civil rights and against poverty by his Christian faith, his reading of 'Das Kapital', Mahatma Gandhi's writings and struggle against the British Raj and a whole host of other writers and philosophers.