Pros and Cons of Proving God Exists?

[Elok]

Well, yeah, Dante wasn't Orthodox. I confess I found that book rather revolting when I had to read it. BTW, Ken asked that, not Gribbler

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ooops, I get all those atheists confused .

[Robert]

I have faith in my wife while I'm sure that she exists.
Like Jon Miller said: you do not understand the concept of faith.

[kentonio]

Perhaps I should have been more specific in my reply, but I wasn't sure how interested he'd be in the nitty gritty of the discussion that Western fire and brimstone Hell isn't necessarily universal.

My point was more that you can't have the concept of freedom if you impose horrendous penalties for choosing to not follow a pre-set path. In the traditional fire and brimstone sense of hell, I just don't see how that can be considered free will. With that in mind, the idea of God choosing to give humanity free will then just seems like a bit of a sick game of temptation: 'I'll let you choose to do all the fun stuff, but if you do then you'll burn for it'. That seems pretty twisted.

[Mojotronica]

I have faith in my wife while I'm sure that she exists.
Like Jon Miller said: you do not understand the concept of faith.

You take your wife for granted? <--- no offense intended, just making a point.

[Kidlicious]

Even the freedom to choose to die remains freedom.

It's one of those things with two answers. The Bible says we are free to choose and we were slaves to the flesh. I think that we don't actually have that much freedom because we mostly do whatever our flesh wants to do. We have a conscience to make us ashamed when we sin, but that doesn't keep us from sinning. Only when we have the Spirit of God can we be righteous.

[Kidlicious]

They are kind of diametrically opposed. One is trying to follow "the law" and one is being guided by the Spirit in doing what is right.

You try to follow the law? Does this mean you don't eat pork or shellfish? Or do you listen to Jesus who reversed those laws when he said that that which comes out of a man, rather than goes into a man, makes him unclean?

So do you intend us to believe that you don't try not to sin? Do you ever get tempted?

You know there are exaggerations in the Bible. It's difficult to understand what it means to live according to the Spirit, but I'm certain that it doesn't mean that you stop trying not to sin.

(yes I eat pork. That rule was for the jews only.)

[Kidlicious]

How does freedom fit with heaven and hell?

Hell certainly isn't freedom. In a parable Jesus says that there is a huge chasm between Heaven and Hell and no one can go from one to the other.

[Imran Siddiqui]

My point was more that you can't have the concept of freedom if you impose horrendous penalties for choosing to not follow a pre-set path. In the traditional fire and brimstone sense of hell, I just don't see how that can be considered free will. With that in mind, the idea of God choosing to give humanity free will then just seems like a bit of a sick game of temptation: 'I'll let you choose to do all the fun stuff, but if you do then you'll burn for it'. That seems pretty twisted.

Well, yeah. My point was Elok doesn't necessarily believe that traditional view (neither do I for that matter).

I think an evangelical would say you do have freedom, you just suffer horribly for the wrong choice. That does sound pretty twisted to you (and me, I must admit) but I guess they'd respond by saying that consequences have actions and simply because you'd, say, go to jail for stealing doesn't mean you lacked true free will to decide not to steal.

I guess that's combining two things - freedom of the will and whether the punishment fits the crime (so to speak - not I believe it is a crime to think differently).

[Imran Siddiqui]

So do you intend us to believe that you don't try not to sin? Do you ever get tempted?

You know there are exaggerations in the Bible. It's difficult to understand what it means to live according to the Spirit, but I'm certain that it doesn't mean that you stop trying not to sin.

(yes I eat pork. That rule was for the jews only.)

The rule was for the Jews only? Is the entirety of "the law" for the Jews only? After all, it is called the NEW Testament for a reason.

I do indeed try not to sin. But I try to be guided by the Spirit in navigating that river. I also follow Jesus who tells me to treat my neighbor as myself and to serve others.

[Robert]

God wants obedient servants. That's what the Bible says all over the place. Jesus said it. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the 10 Commandments are inferior to any other part of the Word. No part of the Word is inferior or superior to any other.

To just name the most obvious ones:

Romans 7:6
quote: "Now we can serve God in a new way by obeying his Spirit, and not in the old way by obeying the written Law."

Acts 15:19-21
one quote: "And so, my friends, I don't think we should place burdens on the Gentiles who are turning to God."

Hebrews 8:6-9, 13 (especially v13)
quote v13: "When the Lord talks about a new agreement, he means that the first one is out of date. And anything that is old and useless will soon disappear."


Galatians 3:1-5
some quotes: "You stupid Galatians! (...) Has someone now put an evil spell on you? (...) Was it by obeying the Law of Moses? (...) How can you be so stupid? Do you think that by yourself you can complete (...) But does he do this because you obey the Law of Moses? (...)

And yes God most defimitely makes the rules, and no one else including yourself.

Agreed. But the teachings of the new testament make clear that those rules aren't set in stone but written in your heart. They depend on place and time for obvious reasons.
Romans 7 makes clear that wicked men (1845 alert!!) will not be able to live up to rules that are set in stone, how good those rules may be. The law was not given to make us live a good life but it was given to us to show to us that we can't live perfectly. It's a mirror. And once you've looked into the mirror, open your heart to let the rules be written in there (Romans 8).

[Kidlicious]

Let me try to help you Imran. In post 8 you said that God is not a rule maker.

Monitronica is saying that if we prove God's existence we will no longer have the existential dilemma because we will objectively know the correct way to live. This means that we know which rules to follow. One of those rules, assuming you would be a christian would be to be "guided by the Spirit." The question is what does that mean exactly. What it clearl does not mean is that you no longer have to follow the rules.

To life by the Spirit means to exist as a self. It means that you don't follow the rules of man, but you follow your own rules, and for a christian the more you follow God's rules the more you become a Self.

[Robert]

You take your wife for granted? <--- no offense intended, just making a point.

If it's a serious point, then please explain your question. I don't get it. (well, in relation to this topic)

[Kidlicious]

Plomp,

The context of those quotes is very important. Paul indeed talked alot about not asking gentiles to follow hard rules that weren't part of their culture like adult circumcision. That's what he's saying about be guided by the Spirit not the Law. But you indeed have to follow the Law unless you sin.

Now I'm not saying that it's black and white and there's no circumstance where you should do what you feel is right regardless of what the Bible says but personally I've never been in such a situation and I don't expect the Lord to put me in one.

[Kidlicious]

My point was more that you can't have the concept of freedom if you impose horrendous penalties for choosing to not follow a pre-set path. In the traditional fire and brimstone sense of hell, I just don't see how that can be considered free will. With that in mind, the idea of God choosing to give humanity free will then just seems like a bit of a sick game of temptation: 'I'll let you choose to do all the fun stuff, but if you do then you'll burn for it'. That seems pretty twisted.

What fun stuff does God not let you do? I wish I knew a way to explai to you that it's fun to be a christian. Alot of things that I used to think were fun weren't really fun looking at the big picture. Now that I don't do them I understand that. But first you have to have faith that there is a higher power that knows better.