Ron Paul takes the lead in Iowa.

[Imran Siddiqui]

America was supposed to be the free society: maximum individual liberty.

No, that was the French Revolution. Read your Burke. The American experiment was far more conservative than that, but yes it was based on Enlightenment ideals.

[kentonio]

I'd prefer to avoid the whole shady business, keep my own money, and take care of myself and my family. I manage to do it with a government that takes from me and gives to others, and I can certainly do it better without one.

America was supposed to be the free society: maximum individual liberty. But you collectivist fools are at it again, so we'll see your failed dreams of centrally planned utopia take yet another country to the brink. Will be interesting, I bought popcorn.

'Supposed' by who exactly? America was a continent full of Native Americans who got invaded and wiped out by Europeans. Yes your revolutionary leaders later had some high minded ideals, but hardly any of you actually follow (or even support) their liberal views and compassion. Your image of America is exactly that, your image. It was nonsense in the past and its nonsense now the idea that people should stand alone, look after their own and not need anything from anyone. Theres been government in America for as long as theres been a Europeanized America, so lets skip the wild west wank fantasies and get real.

[Felch]

Felch, are you seriously suggesting that consumption doesn't drive economic growth? What else would?

Capital investment drives growth. Consumption is a benefit of economic growth. You can't buy a car or remodel your kitchen unless somebody assembles a new car or crafts new cabinets. Capital investment makes industry more productive, and productivity is the source of wealth.

[kentonio]

Why would anyone invest capital without an existing demand?

[Felch]

There's plenty of demand. Do you think people won't want things?

[kentonio]

There's plenty of demand. Do you think people won't want things?

If you start putting the whole tax burden on consumption, then yes I think a lot of people won't want things.

[DaShi]

Demand is more than wanting to buy something.

[Boris Godunov]

Capital investment drives growth. Consumption is a benefit of economic growth. You can't buy a car or remodel your kitchen unless somebody assembles a new car or crafts new cabinets. Capital investment makes industry more productive, and productivity is the source of wealth.

Er, and no one would invest capital in companies if there weren't consumer demand to buy that company's products. Merely investing money in a company won't make it successful. If consumers are inhibited from buying your products due to increased consumption taxes, capital investment won't help.

If what you just said was true, our economy would be amazingly good right now, because corporate profits (and thus, the availabilty of capital) are at record highs. So why aren't things better?

[HalfLotus]

'Supposed' by who exactly?

I suppose I could cite and post photos of the Declaration of Independence, but those would be nonsense "images" which you apparently hold in contempt. Carry on, collectivist.

[Felch]

If you start putting the whole tax burden on consumption, then yes I think a lot of people won't want things.

There are VATs and sales taxes all over Europe and North America. They don't seem to hamper consumption that much.

[DaShi]

That's a lot of big assumptions. Do you have numbers to back them up?

[kentonio]

I suppose I could cite and post photos of the Declaration of Independence, but those would be nonsense "images" which you apparently hold in contempt. Carry on, collectivist.

The people who wrote it were a bunch of flaming liberals by the standards of their time. If you shared a period of history with them, they would be the very people you'd be raging against.

[Felch]

The more I talk about economics, the more I feel like I'm channeling KH's frustration.

It's like you guys ignore foreign trade when you think about things. If American factories are more productive because of capital investment, then our foreign trade will prosper. A sales tax won't wipe out consumption, it simply discourages it. Try to think rationally.

Boris, profits are not the same as capital. Please learn basic economic terms.

[DaShi]

You're making irrational statements and are accusing us of acting irrationally?

We're arguing this: "It makes more sense to discourage spending than earning." Something that you never offered any support for. "There's plenty of demand" does not prove that point or really contribute meaningfully to the discussion.

[Felch]

You're making irrational statements and are accusing us of acting irrationally?

When did I say anything about acting irrationally?