Grover Norquist is literally retarded.

[loinburger]

Given that those sorts of clans are the direct antecedents of the modern notion of government, and provide many of the services considered essential to government (taxation, law enforcement, defense), how is he wrong?

"Given that those sorts of clans aren't same same as the modern notion of government, how is it that those sorts of clans aren't the same as the modern notion of government?"

[Hauldren Collider]

I think BeBro answered you already.

There's actually not a lot of difference between most governments and organized crime, when you think about it.

.

[Hauldren Collider]

"Given that those sorts of clans aren't same same as the modern notion of government, how is it that those sorts of clans aren't the same as the modern notion of government?"

Being a backwards and archaic form of government doesn't make you not a government.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Basically extending the definition of government to an untenable state where it means nothing.

[Kuciwalker]

Really, Imran? You can't wrap your mind around the notion that "government" can refer to something other than the central authority of a nation-state? That in a region of a nation-state where the central authority is weak, such that other organizations have stepped in to fill the role of a government, the net amount of "government" can decrease by increasing the power of the central authority and curtailing that of the other organizations?

[Kuciwalker]

Basically extending the definition of government to an untenable state where it means nothing.

No, he's actually provided a pretty clear definition. You're just an idiot.

[Hauldren Collider]

I'm guessing that Imran won't think it's a government unless it has UN recognition.

[BeBMan]

Given that those sorts of clans are the direct antecedents of the modern notion of government, and provide many of the services considered essential to government (taxation, law enforcement, defense), how is he wrong?

In the modern notion, a gov is responsible for a state. The clans don't provide any of this stuff for "Somalia" as a souvereign state, at best they do (and I'd say rather rudimentary) this for their area of control, and afaik noone is claiming their area as independant state (and the guy spoke explicitly of "Somalia", not small breakaway states.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Really, Imran? You can't wrap your mind around the notion that "government" can refer to something other than the central authority of a nation-state? That in a region of a nation-state where the central authority is weak, such that other organizations have stepped in to fill the role of a government, the net amount of "government" can decrease by increasing the power of the central authority and curtailing that of the other organizations?

That is not a government in the terms of which it is generally used and in the OP. "Acting like a government" doesn't work at all for Norquist's position either.

[BlackCat]

Yeah, like those street gangs in western cities that rule over their blocks. Too much gov

Companies with their own security forces. Too much gov

[Kuciwalker]

In the modern notion, a gov is responsible for a state.

Yes, that's why I said they were the antecedent of the modern notion.

The clans don't provide any of this stuff for "Somalia" as a souvereign state, at best they do (and I'd say rather rudimentary) this for their area of control, and afaik noone is claiming their area as independant state (and the guy spoke explicitly of "Somalia", not small breakaway states.

And that is all completely irrelevant to Norquist's criticisms of state overreach, which are entirely based on the use of force to curtail individual liberty and have nothing to do with national sovereignty.

[Kuciwalker]

That is not a government in the terms of which it is generally used and in the OP. "Acting like a government" doesn't work at all for Norquist's position either.

1) It is in the sense of Norquist's quote, and it is similar to the central authority of a nation-state in all respects essential to Norquist's critique of state overreach.

2) The OP is genuinely stupid, so I don't see why we care.

3) It works perfectly for his position.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And that is all completely irrelevant to Norquist's criticisms of state overreach, which are entirely based on the use of force to curtail individual liberty and have nothing to do with national sovereignty.

The discussion was on the basis of the United States having too much central governmental control (he favors the states having more authority). Somalia shows what happens when you don't have enough central government control - warring factions, to which Norquist basically states, that's what I've been saying, too much government. Leading to head hitting walls.

[Kuciwalker]

The discussion was on the basis of the United States having too much central governmental control (he favors the states having more authority).

Norquist favors devolving powers to the states because he believes that will result in less net government. It is an instrumental, not inherent good. He just as much opposes raising state taxes as federal, etc.

[Imran Siddiqui]

1) It is in the sense of Norquist's quote, and it is similar to the central authority of a nation-state in all respects essential to Norquist's critique of state overreach.

When there is no central governmental authority, you get constant war and factionalism = that's what I mean, too much government!