Now Even Being an Active Anti-American Terrorist Doesn’t Make You Off-Limits for The Obama Administ

[Elok]

You're comparing the worst revolutions of an ideology in it's infancy, to the average Muslim state over 1000 years? Of course it will look bad.

Muslims were competent administrators, and humane for their time, in 700 AD. The distinction is that Islam's limited ideas of social engineering are driven by entirely metaphysical concerns, whereas communism--I suppose I should say Marxism--claims scientific roots and attempts to totally reorganize society as part of a grand experiment.

[Aeson]

I think the point is (or should be) Islamism in the late twentieth century and now compared to Communism up to the fall of the Soviet Union.

There is no comparison. Islamism is at worst a nuisance to most of the world's population. Comminism was an existential threat to the planet (unless the West surrendered).

In that case we're worse than Islamists? We held the entire world under the same threat. Thankfully neither side listened to those who thought a first strike would work.

If/when Islamists get nukes we'll see if that holds true for them.

[Aeson]

Muslims were competent administrators, and humane for their time, in 700 AD.

Damning with faint praise? Slavery, execution of everyone (man woman and child) who won't convert, and treating women as slaves is hardly humane in my book, regardless of what you compare it to.

There have been some "competent administrators" in communist countries as well. It's not all that bad down in Cuba for example, even if they are still poor.

The distinction is that Islam's limited ideas of social engineering are driven by entirely metaphysical concerns, whereas communism--I suppose I should say Marxism--claims scientific roots and attempts to totally reorganize society as part of a grand experiment.

I'm having difficulty figuring out how you mean this to apply to the conversation. Whether they try to pass it off as science or the word of God isn't going to change whether or not they're piling people in mass graves is it?

[Elok]

The distance between bad religious rule and bad "science" rule is measured in famines, shortages, and market collapses. Religious regimes tend to only kill people on purpose.

[Aeson]

Other than keeping everyone in Europe illiterate (and all the awesome stuff that comes of that) for centuries you mean?

[Aeson]

I really don't see how bad "science" lead societies must be any better or worse than bad theocracies. They could both achieve the exact same things depending on what nonsense they are teaching and how they teach it.

[notyoueither]

In that case we're worse than Islamists? We held the entire world under the same threat. Thankfully neither side listened to those who thought a first strike would work.

I'm sure Serb would say so.

If/when Islamists get nukes we'll see if that holds true for them.

If. If the Communists had not ended up on top in Russia, perhaps they never would have amounted to the threat they did. Maybe socialism in the West would have made better progress in places like the US, Central and South America.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

maybe - but it is all a spectrum, communism is a version of socialism with a dictatorship... fascism is a version of capitalism with a dicatorship... so those two could be compared if anything...

In any case, take todays socialist countries with democracies and compare them to more capitalist countries with democracies, and what do you find is just a spectrum, even in US which is heavily "capitalist" by label you have a ton of "social" programs etc... perhaps not so centralised or well organized like in Germany but they are there... it is just a question of "how much, and how well organized/marketed" centrally provided services are...

This is just another arbitrary category, and the particular instances should be discussed one at a time... Khmer Rouge for themselves, USSR and their sphere of influence for themselves, China, Cuba or Yugoslavia again separately... and they all turned out quite differently in each instance.

Yugo version of communism after late 1940's was quite benign, and it transformed into socialism over its lifetime much more in line with current socialst countries like the Scandinavian ones or France... it ultimately collapsed due to internal strife, but that was a given more or less, it was only commie strongarming which kept that state together anyhow for 45 years, and for 20 year between two world wars it was the strong arming of the central "capitalist" government organized around the Yugo king at the time.

[onodera]

Gah, will you please stop misusing the word "communism"?

[notyoueither]

How has it been misused?

[Hauldren Collider]

He thinks that the pipe dream of true communism where everyone lives in teletubbies-esque harmony with no government and perfect cooperation is worth distinguishing from the actual system that developed everywhere it was tried ("socialism"). Obviously, since this is the real world, such a distinction is pointless and meaningless, but apologists love to bring it up anyways.

Socialism now means European-style statism (although of course many socialist parties in Europe aren't even that leftist anymore), while we term absolute state control as communism. So arguing that the USSR wasn't communist is at best pedantry.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Gah, will you please stop misusing the word "communism"?

forget ideology, this is how it worked out in practice...

[rah]

Just a note. Communism worked quite a bit in SMALL communities. There were many communes in the US in the 70's where true Communism reigned. Unfortunately, it never scaled well since larger always meant more POWER, which was hard for people to not desire to have.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

larger means that you get people in the system who abuse it, and communism is particularly vunerable as a "system" to such abuse, as those who really believe in it will be default be overpowered and eliminated (either functionally or phsically if required) by the ones who are ready to abuse the idealists. There are always plenty or enough of those who are ready to do so... that's the weak spot, and the cure is parliamentary democracy, but than you are back to the socialist system which is roughly what you have in todays central european states.

[DaShi]

He thinks that the pipe dream of true communism where everyone lives in teletubbies-esque harmony with no government and perfect cooperation is worth distinguishing from the actual system that developed everywhere it was tried ("socialism"). Obviously, since this is the real world, such a distinction is pointless and meaningless, but apologists love to bring it up anyways.

It's an important distinction if you want to have an intellectual conversation about communism. Just as you need to distinguish American capitalism, from the actual concept of capitalism.