Do You Think in English?

[MikeH]

since when are words required to compose logic? it seems to me that language is only a formulated expression, in order to convey and interpret.

if not, explain to me how deaf-mute people think.

That's one of those fascinating things. They think in sign language, and if you MRI their brains when they are thinking their brains show activity in completely different ways to the way you expect to see when people think in language.

But it's still a language.

[MikeH]

Ever thought of something, but been unable to remember or find the word. "I can see it in my mind" or "words can't express the concept".

And it stops the thought process in its tracks until you find some way to express the concept in language (or symbology or mathematics) and you can move on.

[MikeH]

also, when i read something in dutch/english/spanish, often i can´t remember in which language i read it later. i can, however, tell you what is what about. if that ´information´ was stored as a text string, shouldn´t i have to do a manual translation later?

in fact, how does one translate at all? it requires more than word for word conversion. often words overlap in meaning across languages. or they mean different things in different contexts. only by being able to make sense of it contextually can one accomplish translation. and for that, no amount of words can help you - you need to be able to make sense.

Ah, yes, this is a really good distinction. We don't store information as language.

But thinking isn't memory, it's processing. And we process using language.

[MikeH]

We don't store "apple"

we store synaptic links to the concepts of, green, red, round, sphere, edible, fruit, pips, stalk, tree, cider, Steve Jobs, iPhone which again aren't stored as words but as concepts linked to loads of other concepts.

It's like in English we had no word for "laughing at the misfortune of others" but we could still express that concept.


I'm not really sure what the answer to "can you think without language" is. But I think it's a fascinating question. Obviously a dog can think to some extent.... but then as we study animals we find out they have much more language than we thought.

Some interesting links:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2486/in-what-language-do-deaf-people-think

Can you think without language? Answer: Nope, at least not at the level humans are accustomed to.

This one is fascinating:

http://neuroanthropology.net/2010/07/21/life-without-language/

[Zoetstofzoetje]

Ah, yes, this is a really good distinction. We don't store information as language.

But thinking isn't memory, it's processing. And we process using language.

as far as i can tell, the only times that i ever processed anything using language were for these stupid rote-memorized exams as an undergrad.

when you´re driving a car, do you think: ¨green light, must continue to push foot onto gas pedal¨?

[MOBIUS]

Pretty much, yeah...

Or at least: "Cool, green light - can I make it in time before it changes colour"

[MikeH]

Whilst mechanical tasks use the brain, when I talk about "thinking" that's not what I am talking about. Perhaps that's a language difference.

[MikeH]

Also, there is a massive difference between when you are learning do drive (or any other activity) and when it's a learnt mechanical behaviour.

They had a great bit on a TV show here once where they got two pilots, a new trainee and a wing commander to perform a bombing run.

First they both did the bombing run normally, and the wing commander out performed the trainee.

Then they got both pilots to do the exact same mission again, but this time they had to talk through everything they were doing. The trainee's performance was exactly the same in both runs. Because that's basically what he was doing anyway, running through what he was doing in his head verbally.

The wing commander's performance dropped significantly, because he struggled to convert his instinctive behaviours back into language.

[MikeH]

So to answer "can you think without language" we first need to agree on a definition of thinking.

[Uncle Sparky]

I mostly think in Spanish. Sadly, I neither speak nor understand Spanish. Thankfully, we have etoticons.

[MikeH]

Are they related to emoticons in some way?

[Uncle Sparky]

Las danzas felices del plátano.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

since when are words required to compose logic?

Since when is that that a topic of any relevance to you?

[Lorizael]

Also, there is a massive difference between when you are learning do drive (or any other activity) and when it's a learnt mechanical behaviour.

They had a great bit on a TV show here once where they got two pilots, a new trainee and a wing commander to perform a bombing run.

First they both did the bombing run normally, and the wing commander out performed the trainee.

Then they got both pilots to do the exact same mission again, but this time they had to talk through everything they were doing. The trainee's performance was exactly the same in both runs. Because that's basically what he was doing anyway, running through what he was doing in his head verbally.

The wing commander's performance dropped significantly, because he struggled to convert his instinctive behaviours back into language.

How many people died running this experiment?

[MikeH]

I think a target on the training range got the crap bombed out of it 4 times.