Are you for or against the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency?

[The Mad Monk]

So does American Idol.

[kentonio]

Funny, I seem to remember you reading more into those kind of numbers when it comes to Tea Party support.

[Hauldren Collider]

The tea party has significantly more consistent and specific viewpoints than this group of whiny college students. The Tea Party at least has an overarching philosophy with more grounding than "I HATE BANKERS!"

The Occupy Wall Street group is a mishmash of people with self-conflicting ideas about the economy and government, like "government needs to stop taking away our rights" and "government needs to regulate more" as well as "banks should stop forcing people to pay back loans" along with "banks should be more willing to give out loans". It's ludicrous and pathetic. Whereas the Tea Party is basically "lower taxes and lower government services." That's not irrational and it's perfectly consistent. Whether or not it's optimal is questionable, but it's a legitimate point.

[The Mad Monk]

Get back to me when you have matching election results.

[Hauldren Collider]

Get back to me when you have matching election results.

Yes, also this.

[kentonio]

The tea party has significantly more consistent and specific viewpoints than this group of whiny college students. The Tea Party at least has an overarching philosophy with more grounding than "I HATE BANKERS!"

The Occupy Wall Street group is a mishmash of people with self-conflicting ideas about the economy and government, like "government needs to stop taking away our rights" and "government needs to regulate more" as well as "banks should stop forcing people to pay back loans" along with "banks should be more willing to give out loans". It's ludicrous and pathetic. Whereas the Tea Party is basically "lower taxes and lower government services." That's not irrational and it's perfectly consistent. Whether or not it's optimal is questionable, but it's a legitimate point.

If anything the fact they don't have a single clear rallying call makes them a far more realistic and believable protest than the Kock Brothers founded Tea Party, formed largely of white pensioners on benefits waving banners saying 'Keep government out of medicare'.

[Hauldren Collider]

LOL

Yes, the Koch Brother's fortune controls US politics to such an extent that it managed to FLIP AN ENTIRE HOUSE OF CONGRESS. You are out of your mind.

What other conspiracy theories do you believe? Do you think The Joos are secretly in control of US foreign policy? It's just about as outrageous as basically declaring the Koch Brothers are capable of bringing an entire political movement of millions of people to bear just by directing funds from their bank accounts.

[kentonio]

LOL

Yes, the Koch Brother's fortune controls US politics to such an extent that it managed to FLIP AN ENTIRE HOUSE OF CONGRESS. You are out of your mind.

What other conspiracy theories do you believe? Do you think The Joos are secretly in control of US foreign policy? It's just about as outrageous as basically declaring the Koch Brothers are capable of bringing an entire political movement of millions of people to bear just by directing funds from their bank accounts.

The links between the Kock Brothers and the founding of the tea party are simple documented fact, not some conspiracy theory. They also have strong funding ties with a large number of lobby groups and other organizations which are intended to influence national policy to their desired direction. None of this is controversial or dependant on belief, it's fact which can be checked by anyone who cares to look.

[Hauldren Collider]

Who cares that they fund political movements? The political movements would be ineffective and meaningless if they didn't at some level connect with American voters. You are greatly exaggerating the ability of money to control politics. There is plenty of empirical evidence for money, while being important, not being decisive for political victory. This isn't just from right wingers or republicans. Nate Silver has observed this on his fivethirtyeight blog.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

The irony however is that while small business is more likely to complain about reasonable problems with regulation, big business is more likely to use those complaints as ammunition to lobby for huge changes to the system such as the massive lobbying that has led the TP/GOP to start calling for the near abolishion of the EPA.

No not really. With the exception of the oil and gas industries major industries such as Dupont, Dow, Monsanto, ADM, GE, GM all the major electrical utilities to name a few see advantage from regulatory distortion.

This I don't believe. It's the old argument about how business will just up sticks and go somewhere else, and it's not true. America is a vast consumer market, and as long as there is money to be made there people will remain there and make money. You can't just outsource everything to Asia and continue to have a market to sell in.

[kentonio]

Who cares that they fund political movements? The political movements would be ineffective and meaningless if they didn't at some level connect with American voters.

Money isn't enough alone, but the Kochs didn't just drop a ton of cash in someones lap, they spent years carefully funding the right groups and building an organization that suited their designs.

You are greatly exaggerating the ability of money to control politics. There is plenty of empirical evidence for money, while being important, not being decisive for political victory. This isn't just from right wingers or republicans. Nate Silver has observed this on his fivethirtyeight blog.

Next year Obama is looking to spend a billion dollars on a reelection campaign, and even rep seats can cost millions in campaigning. Without money a political campaign is dead in the water, with enough money even politically weak causes can make ground.

The huge success of the Tea Party was because they tapped into the fears of a chunk of the US public at just the right time and spent a lot of money on it. The so called 'causes' of the TP are mostly complete nonsense. The very people out there wearing ****ing tricorn hats and waving copies of the constitution are the one who would suffer the most from the things they are calling out for. They were played pure and simple, and as half of them didn't feel any inclination to wave a tea bag until a black president got elected, they deserve everything they get frankly.

[The Mad Monk]

You're really bored today, aren't you.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

This I don't believe. It's the old argument about how business will just up sticks and go somewhere else, and it's not true. America is a vast consumer market, and as long as there is money to be made there people will remain there and make money. You can't just outsource everything to Asia and continue to have a market to sell in.

Surprisingly your beliefs seem at odds with reality.

[kentonio]

You're really bored today, aren't you.

Yes.

[kentonio]

Surprisingly your beliefs seem at odds with reality.

Really, please explain then why at times when US tax rates were considerable above what they are now, business and rich individuals did not all just leave the country? There are a host of reasons why it's completely impractical for most companies to just go and operate out of China or wherever.