Are you for or against the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency?

[Hauldren Collider]

Oh stop with the strawman crap, noones in favour of randomly changing regulations, the point I was making was that it just doesn't happen in the exaggerated way that people keep claiming. Yes sometimes regulations are badly implemented, and sometimes just badly written, but the answer to that is to carefully fix them, not to say 'This proves we shouldn't have regulation'.

Speaking of strawmen....

You are praising the idea of keeping companies on their toes, as you say, instead of setting consistent regulations that companies can follow and are sufficient to keep the public safe. WHAT is the point of regulations that exceed what we know is necessary to keep the public safe? You see, the goal isn't actually to be punitive to companies simply for existing. That would be retarded. It also appears to be what you are advocating.

[Hauldren Collider]

Except they aren't, because if you look outside your own little national borders at the rest of the damn world, you'd see all this stuff has been done before, and the horror stories big business feeds you about how it'll destroy the country are just bull****.

Yeah, I don't think I'm the one being fed horror stories here...

[kentonio]

Speaking of strawmen....

You are praising the idea of keeping companies on their toes, as you say, instead of setting consistent regulations that companies can follow and are sufficient to keep the public safe.

No, I'm saying that consistent regulation is the norm, and I don't give a rats ass about business crying and exaggerating about odd cases where it hasn't worked well. If they chose to just condemn those cases then fair play, but they're trying to use them as an excuse to rip away a lot of vital regulation, and they're doing it just so they can increase their profit margins, despite the adverse affect on things like public health. **** them.

WHAT is the point of regulations that exceed what we know is necessary to keep the public safe? You see, the goal isn't actually to be punitive to companies simply for existed. That would be retarded. It also appears to be what you are advocating.

Except it isn't.

[Hauldren Collider]

You know, it amazes me how so many Europeans fall back on this wonderful argument of "Oh, you're American. You're ignorant. That's why you don't agree with me." as if this were a) true and b) could explain away all the disagreements between any given American and any given European. What do they teach you over there, that we don't have news, or schools, or things? Perhaps this implies something incredible...perhaps this implies that Europeans are either as ignorant or more ignorant about America than Americans are about Europe!

Now of course I don't want to generalize, I know most European posters aren't as bad as kentonio is being here

[kentonio]

Yeah, I don't think I'm the one being fed horror stories here...

Why exactly do you think big business wishes to destroy the EPA and remove regulation over their operations? Do you honestly believe they have any incentive other than profit margin for doing this? Also do you honestly believe that business can be trusted to regulate itself?

[Hauldren Collider]

Why exactly do you think big business wishes to destroy the EPA and remove regulation over their operations? Do you honestly believe they have any incentive other than profit margin for doing this? Also do you honestly believe that business can be trusted to regulate itself?

STRAWMAN ALERT

[kentonio]

You know, it amazes me how so many Europeans fall back on this wonderful argument of "Oh, you're American. You're ignorant. That's why you don't agree with me." as if this were a) true and b) could explain away all the disagreements between any given American and any given European. What do they teach you over there, that we don't have news, or schools, or things? Perhaps this implies something incredible...perhaps this implies that Europeans are either as ignorant or more ignorant about America than Americans are about Europe!

Now of course I don't want to generalize, I know most European posters aren't as bad as kentonio is being here

I don't think Americans are stupid, but I do believe that America has a very unique ideological system which encourages some globally unusual attitudes. The American dream of anyone being able to acheive anything if they work hard enough all too often ends up being twisted into the perverse 'If you're poor its your own fault'. Although I also dislike generalizations, a large number of Americans seem to put far too much faith into the positive power of business and while that doesn't make you stupid, it does occasionally make you naive. If you look at the history of your own country, let alone the rest of the world, you see endless abuses of power and disregard for people from corporations and business executives. Hell, Your top financial institutions just crashed the global economy and commited fraud and abuse on a vast scale, and yet the people protesting this on wall street are still accused of being communists and hippies.

[kentonio]

STRAWMAN ALERT

You just accused me of being full of **** and not knowing anything, why is it a strawman to try and understand a little more about what you believe so I can explain why you're wrong?

[SlowwHand]

I don't think Americans are stupid, but I do believe that America has a very unique ideological system which encourages some globally unusual attitudes. The American dream of anyone being able to acheive anything if they work hard enough all too often ends up being twisted into the perverse 'If you're poor its your own fault'. Although I also dislike generalizations, a large number of Americans seem to put far too much faith into the positive power of business and while that doesn't make you stupid, it does occasionally make you naive. If you look at the history of your own country, let alone the rest of the world, you see endless abuses of power and disregard for people from corporations and business executives. Hell, Your top financial institutions just crashed the global economy and commited fraud and abuse on a vast scale, and yet the people protesting this on wall street are still accused of being communists and hippies.

Not altogether true. Many people with money are saying to tax them and are actively participating in the protests. They have it, they should pay. Somehow it makes sense.

[kentonio]

Not altogether true. Many people with money are saying to tax them and are actively participating in the protests. They have it, they should pay. Somehow it makes sense.

It does make sense, but you also have huge numbers of extremely poor people saying that that is nothing more than communism, and vigorously defending the right of the super rich to keep their money. Which is a bit mental really.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Why exactly do you think big business wishes to destroy the EPA and remove regulation over their operations? Do you honestly believe they have any incentive other than profit margin for doing this? Also do you honestly believe that business can be trusted to regulate itself?

You do realize that by and large it is not Big business that is the advocate of reducing the regulatory load. In point of fact it ususally is some collection of small businesses that can ill afford to staff the required environmental officers replete with required reporting etc. On the other hand big business, due to the scale of operations, may chafe at the requirements and may pitch a fit when it impacts capital expenditure plans, but by and large it is the small businesses that are most impacted. In fact many large corporations see the regulatory shceme as nothing but a means to force the market place into areas not yet ready for development via normal market means (uniquely suited to their own offerings), or as a means to puntively punish upstart competitors and further set up an arbitrary barriers to market entry. If anything big business by and large has the wherewithal to make the regulations fit their purposes (if not outright lobby and craft them) and find a means to turn it to their advantage (usually at the expense of alternative competitive offerings). And if after all of that if they still cant deal with the regulatory requirments they have the ability and capital to pull up stakes and commence operations in a more business friendly nation, not so for the small business.

[MRT144]

If only our legal system provided for better action against companies that knowingly create externalities. It's kinda of bull**** that the same people that lament a regulatory framework also want to dismantle the legal framework that could hold some of the worst polluting companies accountable.

[kentonio]

You do realize that by and large it is not Big business that is the advocate of reducing the regulatory load. In point of fact it ususally is some collection of small businesses that can ill afford to staff the required environmental officers replete with required reporting etc. On the other hand big business, due to the scale of operations, may chafe at the requirements and may pitch a fit when it impacts capital expenditure plans, but by and large it is the small businesses that are most impacted. In fact many large corporations see the regulatory shceme as nothing but a means to force the market place into areas not yet ready for development via normal market means (uniquely suited to their own offerings), or as a means to puntively punish upstart competitors and further set up an arbitrary barriers to market entry. If anything big business by and large has the wherewithal to make the regulations fit their purposes (if not outright lobby and craft them) and find a means to turn it to their advantage (usually at the expense of alternative competitive offerings).

I think it's fair to differentiate between the two, you're right. I don't think its fair however to give small business a pass on environmental stuff either though. Try and make the burden on them as manageable as possible sure, but when it's a choice between the operability of a small business and the health of the public then the public come first. The irony however is that while small business is more likely to complain about reasonable problems with regulation, big business is more likely to use those complaints as ammunition to lobby for huge changes to the system such as the massive lobbying that has led the TP/GOP to start calling for the near abolishion of the EPA.

And if after all of that if they still cant deal with the regulatory requirments they have the ability and capital to pull up stakes and commence operations in a more business friendly nation, not so for the small business.

This I don't believe. It's the old argument about how business will just up sticks and go somewhere else, and it's not true. America is a vast consumer market, and as long as there is money to be made there people will remain there and make money. You can't just outsource everything to Asia and continue to have a market to sell in.

[Elok]

Hell, Your top financial institutions just crashed the global economy and commited fraud and abuse on a vast scale, and yet the people protesting this on wall street are still accused of being communists and hippies.

That they are largely composed of hippies seems plain. Whether they have a valid point...well, I'll reserve judgment until they come up with a point beyond "it sucks."

[kentonio]

That they are largely composed of hippies seems plain. Whether they have a valid point...well, I'll reserve judgment until they come up with a point beyond "it sucks."

They also have the backing of 37% of the American population judging by the last poll.