Is there a big difference between 3e & 3.5e D &D ?

[Dinner]

Nah, 1st Ed all the way with me - D&D started going downhill when they brought out Unearthed Arcana...

I played both 1st and 2nd but found 2nd to be the best by far because it took all of the stuff from 1st edition and just cleaned it up & made the rules consistent. It still was basically the same game but it was easier to use and simply more fun.

[Dinner]

What is the key differences between 1st ed and 2nd ed?

Most my experiment is with 3/3.5 ed, but I have some knowledge of 2/2.5/4 ed.

JM

The big differences between 1st & 2nd:

- The proficiency system was over hauled and standardized so that they became a much bigger part of the game. This was integrated with the "kit" system to allow players to more easily customize their characters with actually changing any of the rules. Also in 1st all class skills were the same for every person of that level in that class where as, for example, in 2nd you could allocate points to each skill and decide to specialize your character in certain tasks instead of always being a generalist.

- In first edition every little variation of a class was it's own class. Example: You had the thief, the assassin, the thief-acrobat and a bunch of even more specialized variants found in Dragon Magazine. In 2nd edition these were all made part of the thief class but you could customize your PC using kits. Kits added some minor bonuses (and some equally minor detractions) but helped people flesh out their characters. This really increased actual role playing even while it GREATLY simplified the rules.

- The rules were greatly cleaned up and simplified. There were over a dozen different AD&D books in 1st edition many of which contradicted each other or were just plain complicated. E.G. Gygax just loved to invent complicated **** just to show how smart he was; 2nd edition kept the flavor and feel of 1st edition but cleaned everything up and organized it in an easy to use,read, and find way so that even teen kids could quickly answer any questions. The indexing in 2nd edition books was INCREDIBLY EXTENSIVE especially compared to how crappy the indexes were in 1st edition book.

I'm sure I'm missing stuff since I haven't actually played AD&D in 20 years but that should give you an idea of some of the differences.

[Felch]

Why does everyone hate 4e? Everyone plays 3.5 here at CMU.

Oh, to answer your question, people hate 4e because they hate balance and sound game design. In case JM didn't spell it out for you clearly enough.

[Jon Miller]

4ed is a game like a computer game (warcraft/etc), if you want to role play the sort of stories that most people are interested in, you should use something else

JM

[Dinner]

4ed is a game like a computer game (warcraft/etc), if you want to role play the sort of stories that most people are interested in, you should use something else

JM

4ed was WotC saying "Gee, WoW is very popular so let's just copy WoW and call it D&D."

[Hauldren Collider]

If I wanted to focus on the game aspect, I wouldn't play an rpg.

RPGs are great for the role playing.

JM

If you want to roleplay, do it with your girlfriend. Games are fun. Roleplaying in a game is only interesting to the extent that it is fun. There's nothing stopping you from roleplaying in 4e, it just makes the game fun for everyone.

[Felch]

4ed was WotC saying "Gee, WoW is very popular so let's just copy WoW and call it D&D."

You've either never played WoW, or you've never played 4e.

[Jon Miller]

If you want to roleplay, do it with your girlfriend. Games are fun. Roleplaying in a game is only interesting to the extent that it is fun. There's nothing stopping you from roleplaying in 4e, it just makes the game fun for everyone.

It doesn't allow me to do any of the roleplaying I would want to do.

As I said, there aren't many settings where it (or anything similar to it) are applicable. If there was, I would think differently.

Think of fantasy books/stories/etc, it jsut isn't relevant.

It isn't fun if the world doesn't work in ways liek I want to imagine it.

JM

[Dinner]

You've either never played WoW, or you've never played 4e.

Both but that's what I've been told by people who have played both including our very own Self Biased.

[Burning_Monkey]

I see that Gamma World is being released again.

I really loved the first edition, the second was pretty good. The third looks like a hot turd sandwich.

[Jon Miller]

Basically, I think most of these RPGs are being ruined by trying to reach out to computer game players. Diablo, WOW, etc were all fun, but not what we were looking for in a RPG.

In the new games, it is expected that everyone is a munchkin...

JM

[Jon Miller]

Note that doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy WOW/etc.

And having pnp games of that type is cool too.

They are just quite limited, and not as good for what the purpose of rpgs was.

Are you guys big fans of descent?

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17226/descent-journeys-in-the-dark

jM

[Dinner]

Ever since 3rd ed RPGs have been a munchkin's paradise. Back when my friends and I played 1st and 2nd editions one of the most fun aspects of the game was low level where your PC really was weak, where he couldn't just power through everything, and so you often had to come up with creative & interesting ways to beat situations instead of just killing everything. Figuring out how to trap powerful monsters in different rooms since you couldn't beat them, negotiating your way out of situations, or sneaking around other tight spots was all part of it. Even better was role playing your way into tricking third parties into doing stuff for you or even tricking them into their deaths since you had no hope of killing them on your own.

The new kids don't seem to like role playing and instead simply attack everything in sight. I'd love to see someone put the "role" back into role playing.

[Jon Miller]

You can do interesting things with 4ed... including roleplaying.

It does take out a lot of the options though.

JM

[Felch]

Both but that's what I've been told by people who have played both including our very own Self Biased.

Self Biased is full of ****, and you shouldn't look to other people for your opinions.