Rudy Giuliani Blames Americans for 9/11

[DinoDoc]

btw DD, I dont think I ever started a thread about Rudy blaming Americans for 9/11 - I dont even remember starting any threads about Pat and Jerry,

I linked directly to it. Hell it's even on the same exact topic as this thread with you getting indignant over Rudy's attack on Ron Paul.

what was Arrian's response?

Not very many people want to hear that our actions have had anything to do with the hatred of the US in the ME. People get very defensive about that.

However, there has to be a line somewhere between doing everything in our power to antagonize the crazies and appeasing the crazies. Even if we withdrew all our troops from the region, they'd still be pissed off about Israel. Even if we dropkicked Israel to the curb (just a tad unlikely, dontcha think?), they'd be pissed about our relations with various "apostate" governments in the ME, which we would still have b/c we still want to buy oil.

The only way we could possibly wash our hands completely of the ME is to reduce our oil demand to close to zero, something that isn't going to happen in the foreseable future, even if we go all-out on alternative fuels starting now (which, lipservice aside, we're not). And that still leaves the issue of Israel. What are we gonna do? Abandon an ally? Yeah, great foreign policy move there.

-Arrian

[Dinner]

They attacked us because we're free, they hate our freedoms... Thats a variation of what Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell concluded, but they were much more specific about which Americans were the ultimate cause - Unplanned Parenthood and abortion, porn and divorce, ACLU, gays, liberals, atheists, etc. At the same time, Rudy was "stunned" when Ron Paul identified US foreign policy as their motive for attacking us, even accusing Paul of saying "we" Americans brought it on ourselves. But thats what Rudy has always said, that we did bring it on ourselves - with our sinful freedoms - whereas Paul didn't mention the American people, just policies like leaving armies in Saudi Arabia to impose sanctions on Iraqis instead of leaving after the first Gulf War.

Is Rudy a Weasel or is he America's Mayor?

I wonder how the NYFD would vote on that...

For once, I agree completely with you. If we weren't trying to run everyone else's country than we'd be like Canada; a well of country which most people admire, which many would like to move to, but which virtually no one hates (unless you live in a town where Canucks fans recently rioted then, of course, you hate them ).

[DaShi]

I linked directly to it. Hell it's even on the same exact topic as this thread with you getting indignant over Rudy's attack on Ron Paul.

Really doesn't address the "They hate us for our freedoms." inanity.

[Felch]

Paul is right to think critically about how American policy shapes how we are perceived. Arrian is right in saying that we're pretty much stuck in the situation we're in. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't learn from our mistakes. I'd rather have a president who thinks seriously about the consequences of his decisions than some witless cheerleader who just brags about America being great. America is still #1, but we're slipping, and the Republican attitude isn't doing us any favors. Santorum tore into Paul about this in the SC debate, and it pissed me off. Most Republican candidates would rather curry votes from imbeciles like DD than tell the hard truth.

[Berzerker]

I linked directly to it. Hell it's even on the same exact topic as this thread with you getting indignant over Rudy's attack on Ron Paul.

I didn't accuse Rudy of blaming Americans in that quote. This thread is about how Rudy blames Americans while he falsely accuses Paul of blaming Americans. Arrian's post seems to agree with mine about the dangers of misleading people with BS, so...

[Lorizael]

What did it point to?

9 Metrotech Center.

[DinoDoc]

Paul is right to think critically about how American policy shapes how we are perceived.

Who cares how American policy shapes how we are perceived? The seeming American obsession to be liked is puzzling. The only real question wrt state policy is if it serves the interests of the State. It's why I don't care for the the "They hate us for our freedom" tripe either.

[giblets]

Who cares how American policy shapes how we are perceived? The seeming American obsession to be liked is puzzling. The only real question wrt state policy is if it serves the interests of the State. It's why I don't care for the the "They hate us for our freedom" tripe either.

No, the only real question is if it serves the interests of the public. If the likelihood of getting targeted by terrorists is related to whether the rest of the world hates us then that would matter.

[DinoDoc]

Cars are more of a threat to the public than terrorism, gribbler.

[giblets]

So is cancer. I'm not sure what your point is.

[Berzerker]

Who cares how American policy shapes how we are perceived? The seeming American obsession to be liked is puzzling. The only real question wrt state policy is if it serves the interests of the State. It's why I don't care for the the "They hate us for our freedom" tripe either.

Quite a difference between an obsession to be liked and not wanting people on the other side of the world hijacking our planes and using them as bombs.

[DinoDoc]

I don't find people might hate us a valid argument against a particular policy, gribbler.

[giblets]

I don't find people might hate us a valid argument against a particular policy, gribbler.

You've already said this.

[giblets]

I guess on 9/11 you were thinking "hey, it's only 3000 people. We lose more than that to automobile accidents." Unfortunately most people did not react this way and instead supported a president's decision to get the US entangled in two different wars and chip away at our civil liberties. Maybe we would be better off if foreigners didn't hate us.

[Berzerker]

I don't find people might hate us a valid argument against a particular policy, gribbler.

how about admitting to the blowback instead of slandering critics who point to the cost