Does hell really make sense?

[Kidlicious]

With regards to "that is ofensive", the people to whom Jesus was speaking also found it ofensive


52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, �How can this man give us his flesh to eat?�


60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, �This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?�

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Perhaps Jesus should have told them he was being allegorical, but he didnt

Jesus also said

Take this, all of you, and eat it:
this is my body which will be given up for you.

Take this, all of you, and drink from it:
this is the cup of my blood,
the blood of the new and everlasting covenant.
It will be shed for you and for all
so that sins may be forgiven.
Do this in memory of me.



As far as I know pretty much all Christians before the protestant reformation believed in the real presence. We have patristic evidence going to the first centuries, and some other stuff like Christians being considered cannibals by the Romans because of the eating Christ's body part.

I also don't think Church is irrelevant or an individual thing. Jesus founded a Church, the apostles belonged to the same Church, and they even had a council.
I don't see a reason why any Christians should think he has the right to ignore the first 3 Ecumenical Councils, they happened before the separation of the Oriental churches, and around 6 centuries before the separation of the Roman and Eastern Orthodox Church, you can pretty much say that there was only one Church on earth back then, Nestorians were condemned in the third one and nowadays are less than 200.000 in the middle east.

What Jon said, and it's just simply not actual flesh and blood. Its bread and wine. It would have been better for the church leaders to explain that to people then not so many people would have been offended. Indeed some will be offended anyway but they are not the ellect.

And where does it say in the Bible that you should obey the church no matter what they say to do and what they say to believe. It's my opinion that the Bible says that each individual is responsible for what they believe. If someone leads you astray with false doctrine you are guilty of sin. Where does it say that the church is right in everything?

[Kidlicious]

With regards to "that is ofensive", the people to whom Jesus was speaking also found it ofensive


52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, �How can this man give us his flesh to eat?�


60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, �This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?�

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Perhaps Jesus should have told them he was being allegorical, but he didnt

Jesus also said

Take this, all of you, and eat it:
this is my body which will be given up for you.

Take this, all of you, and drink from it:
this is the cup of my blood,
the blood of the new and everlasting covenant.
It will be shed for you and for all
so that sins may be forgiven.
Do this in memory of me.



As far as I know pretty much all Christians before the protestant reformation believed in the real presence. We have patristic evidence going to the first centuries, and some other stuff like Christians being considered cannibals by the Romans because of the eating Christ's body part.

I also don't think Church is irrelevant or an individual thing. Jesus founded a Church, the apostles belonged to the same Church, and they even had a council.
I don't see a reason why any Christians should think he has the right to ignore the first 3 Ecumenical Councils, they happened before the separation of the Oriental churches, and around 6 centuries before the separation of the Roman and Eastern Orthodox Church, you can pretty much say that there was only one Church on earth back then, Nestorians were condemned in the third one and nowadays are less than 200.000 in the middle east.

What Jon said, and it's just simply not actual flesh and blood. Its bread and wine. It would have been better for the church leaders to explain that to people then not so many people would have been offended. Indeed some will be offended anyway but they are not the ellect.

And where does it say in the Bible that you should obey the church no matter what they say to do and what they say to believe. It's my opinion that the Bible says that each individual is responsible for what they believe. If someone leads you astray with false doctrine you are guilty of sin. Where does it say that the church is right in everything?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Let us also remember that a lot of what Christians are talking about in regards to Heaven and Hell is mere speculation. A lot of Christians seem to forget that they don't leave their bodies behind when they die. The body gets resurrected when Jesus returns and Heaven and Earth are made one. This has led to plenty of theologians speculate that there is a "soul sleep" after death until the final resurrection.

FTR, I don't believe the bread and wine are "real presence", but also that Jesus does tell his disciples to eat the bread and wine in remembrance of him (He just doesn't give exact specifications of when and how). Also not a fan of the concept of "election" - I am a committed Arminian who believes that we all have the free will to accept or deny the Holy Spirit, due to God's love for us. FWIW, I tend towards belief in universal salvation after a time of temporary cleansing in a purgatory like Hell - but I really don't know and it really doesn't matter (the floor, for me, is the Nicene Creed).

[Kidlicious]

Imran, 'speculation' implies that beliefs are liberal I think. It's like investing your money. The object should be not to lose it, not to make as much as possible. I think there are places throughout the binle that mention God's elect.

btw, not saying you aren't a christian although I think some universalists are too liberal, and don't, for example believe in hell at all (or satan).

[MattBowron]

You guys do realise that "hell" and "heaven" weren't originally in the Bible, but were taken from Norse mythology. Hel was an underworld goddess who looked over the souls of the dead, and that place was quite cold. Norse mythology also believes about a man taking from a tree knowledge of good and evil, a tree which is fed by a snake. And Norse mythology believes that the son of god would be killed by Loki (fire bearer) by a spear, and would be resurrected, after Loki has been released from his prison and fought a battle to end the world, and would rule over the new heaven and earth and new man and woman. Sound familiar?

[Jon Miller]

Do you even know what you are talking about? I am pretty sure you don't.

The influence of greek thought is much greater on the Bible than nordic thought.

'sheol' or something was the old hebrew word.

JM

[MattBowron]

indeed, Hades was used as a term for Sheol, but even Sheol wasn't a place of fire and brimstone, it was more like a dark underworld. Also notice from Greek, there is a trickster god/titan "Prometheus" who gives man the gift of fire, and Prometheus is also called "light bearer". A woman unleashes all the evil in the world by doing something she was not meant to do. Man and woman are made from clay, and there's a flood at the end. 'Heaven' and 'Hel' literally are however from Norse/Germanic. One thing that is interesting is that both Greek, Norse and Persian come from the same root language "Indo-European".

[Jon Miller]

English is Germanic.

Oh my!

JM

[Elok]

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting your Norse mythology, but certain details sound off. Baldur, for example, was killed by an arrow made of mistletoe, not a spear. The only connection between Yggdrasil and snakes that I know of is that the dragon Niddhogg (possibly misspelled) is in niflheim or muspellheim gnawing on one of the roots. My memory is shaky, since I haven't read Norse myth in ages, but when I did read it I read it a lot, and some of this seems off.

The general problem with the "pagan christs" theory is that none of them seem to bear any resemblance to the actual Christ. Baldur doesn't offer himself up to be killed--the other gods go to tremendous lengths to keep him alive, and he's only killed due to an oversight. His resurrection has no saving power in it, nor is he resurrected by his own power. The gods try to resurrect him before Ragnarok by essentially begging the keeper of Hel to let him go, only to be thwarted by Loki; he comes back after Ragnarok, but so do a lot of things. These may sound like petty details to a non-Christian, but they're what make the death and resurrection of Christ significant to a Christian.

[Barnabas]

If the bread is only a symbol, and remains bread, how can you eat it in an unworthy manner? And how can it hurt you?

"Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord
For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against tehmselves. For this reason many of you are weak and ill, and some have died."

Not only that, the bible says that eating the bread in an unworthy way, hurts you.

Catholics believe taking the bread in an unworth way means eating the bread in a state of mortal si, if you have commited a sin that would send you to hell since the last time you ate the eucharist. If you eat the bread in those cases, instead of being good for you, it hurts you.

[Jon Miller]

If the bread is only a symbol, and remains bread, how can you eat it in an unworthy manner? And how can it hurt you?

The Jews had holy bread in the temple. And yes, you could eat it in an unworthy manner. And yes, it was bad to do so. God didn't strike down every person who did so, but that didn't mean it wasn't bad.

JM

[Barnabas]

Ok, so at least you agree the eating of the bread isn't just lets eat some bread together and remember Jesus, it is sacred in some way

[Imran Siddiqui]

It is sacred in the ritual. If you bless the bread and wine and are consuming it in the rememberance of Jesus's sacrifice, your heart may be in the wrong place if you do it for wrong reasons.

[Jon Miller]

It is sacred. That is why there have been occasions where I have not taken part in communion, even at my home church.

While I am very protestant, and think very protestantly, I do think that protestants have sometimes forgotten the sacred in our relationship with God. Which is something Elok? referenced earlier.

JM

[Elok]

I was thinking in particular of the time I was away at college, attending a pan-Christian prayer meeting since there was no Orthodox church nearby. We went around praying for this and that, and it's all fine, when suddenly somebody addresses God with: "Wow, Jesus, what can I say, man? You're the ****." And nobody blinks.

I didn't say anything since he plainly meant well and all, but really? "You're the ****"? Who addresses the creator of heaven and earth like that?