A Thread on Race and Multiculturalism for Hera

[notyoueither]

In any case all I was saying is that riots like these are as common in modern Europe as they are because of the multicultural society Western Europe has become.

I'd say that Europe has botched multiculturalism, not that multiculturalism can't work.

[Japher]

I think EPCOT at Disneyworld is the best example of Multiculturalism not working... Once around that mall of the world or whatever they call it and you're bupring up kong pow rabbit and german bitters you'll know what I mean

[Barnabas]

Why would multiculturalism be better than the melting pot? I think immigrants should adopt the culture of the majority to some degree. And if they want to remain apart, they should keep from trying to change the society which has received them.

[Japher]

Then all the kiosks at the food court would be the same!

[Barnabas]

I don't mean that.
What I mean is this, in 1810 all my ancestors lived in Europe. In spite of that, I recognize people such as Bolivar and San Martin as my independence heroes and ancestors in some kind of way, because primary school has indoctrinated me, and my argentine ancestors, into believing that, so that I can feel a part of the Argentine nation as much as a the descendant of a native or a XVI century conquistador.

I am sure that in the USA, you must have descendants of Poles who live in Texas, and descendants of Italians who live in the North, who have intense arguments about the civil war, because even if their ancestors emigrated to the USA in 1908, they somehow feel related to the past of their land and identify with Lincoln and stuff, that is what primary school history teachers are for, to make kids feel part of a nation as if they all had something in common in spite of their different origin.

Now, does Zidane feel in any way related to Joan of Arch? How English do the afro caribbeans feel?

[Aeson]

I for one think the "loot and pillage" culture needs to be given respect. We need to remember that our own "watch tv and get fat" culture may seem equally barbaric to them. Really we should reach out and find ways in which we can both benefit from the other's culture. I'm thinking a loot and pillage reality show could really bring our peoples together. Kinda like the news but with slightly less actual news and a lot more prizes.

[notyoueither]

Why would multiculturalism be better than the melting pot?

Not necessarily better, just a different way of addressing differences.

I think immigrants should adopt the culture of the majority to some degree. And if they want to remain apart, they should keep from trying to change the society which has received them.

What would American cuisine be like without the influence of Italian and Spanish?

Why was it fine for there to be Roman Catholic churches in early American and Canadian society, but now mosques are somehow an assault on 'our' culture? The English did not enforce all of their church and culture on those they conquered, and did not force later new comers to drop everything they came with.

Most Americans are proud of their melting pot, although they are quite a ways divorced from the original British culture.

Most Canadians are happy with a mosaic, and to acknowledge that 'our' culture is a blend of all that came before.

[notyoueither]

I don't mean that.
What I mean is this, in 1810 all my ancestors lived in Europe. In spite of that, I recognize people such as Bolivar and San Martin as my independence heroes and ancestors in some kind of way, because primary school has indoctrinated me, and my argentine ancestors, into believing that, so that I can feel a part of the Argentine nation as much as a the descendant of a native or a XVI century conquistador.

I am sure that in the USA, you must have descendants of Poles who live in Texas, and descendants of Italians who live in the North, who have intense arguments about the civil war, because even if their ancestors emigrated to the USA in 1908, they somehow feel related to the past of their land and identify with Lincoln and stuff, that is what primary school history teachers are for, to make kids feel part of a nation as if they all had something in common in spite of their different origin.

Now, does Zidane feel in any way related to Joan of Arch? How English do the afro caribbeans feel?

We do the same. We are taught about Wolfe and Riel.

Many second and subsequent generation children of immigrants begin refusing to be categorised as anything other than Canadian. At the same time, we all may enjoy parties at Christmas as well as Chinese New Year, and Carribean fesivals are fun too.

My point is that it seems that this process of acceptance and the making of new identity seems to be breaking down in Europe. When major politicians are saying that multiculturalism is a failure, many Canadians are thinking 'you're doin' it wrong.'

[Barnabas]

Perhaps there is some degree of incompatibility that did not exist with the immigrants the USA, Australia, Canada, Brazil or Argentina received in the XIX and early XX century.

[Al B. Sure!]

As long as they don't have some cultural more that goes against the laws of the country, what's the problem?

[notyoueither]

Perhaps there is some degree of incompatibility that did not exist with the immigrants the USA, Australia, Canada, Brazil or Argentina received in the XIX and early XX century.

We (Canada and the US) are accepting immigrants from the same places as Europe is, maybe not in the same proportions. An exception may be that the US and Canada see more South and Central Americans (I do not know) and the Europeans get a lot of people from Turkey and around the Med (I think). Then there is the issue of illegals in the US.

One real difference may be qualifications of immigrants. Canada and the US (and Austrailia) have stringent requirements for economic migrants. Europe may not have the same proportions of educated, motivated migrants.

Perhaps France and the UK accepted a large number of less qualified migrants in the post colonial era.

I don't know about the US, but Canada accepts a fair number of refugees, and the first economic migrant may then sponsor family members (mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, etc). These later comers would have someone already here who is integrating themselves in the workforce and broader culture.

[Heraclitus]

I'd say that Europe has botched multiculturalism, not that multiculturalism can't work.

Actually seems a reasonable position to take. Canada's system of having very high standards on who to let in but having a multicultural society for those who do manage to get in, seems to be working for now.

[Heraclitus]

However I still find such a economically sound multiculturalism (lets ignore "diversity's" effects of lowering trust for now) problematic for the following reasons:

1. Cultures differ, hence some cultures will out compete others for a given set of economic and environmental conditions
2. Humans have different values which are partially determined by culture


No matter what your system of values is, why allow cultures with different values the potential to supplant your own? Is it really a far stretch to imagine say orthodox Islam or fundamentalist Christianity triumphing through raw demographics in the absence of propaganda and indoctrination in state primary schools? And if you are using say schools or media to purposefully modify their culture so it looses it potency, isn't then the difference between assimilationist and multiculturalism one of degree rather than kind?


Of course naturally different cultures cross-pollinating might create a better vehicle for your values, but considering human values are complex and fragile, why put trust in a purely Darwinian process? But as is implied in the previous paragraph process isn't Darwinian, since society has several tools such as say the state at its disposal to modify itself purposefully.


Does in the end faith in multiculturalism comes down to faith in Democracy and it working in the best interest of preserving the values and shaping the world in a way that is consistent to the values, of its voters?

[Dinner]

Singapore seems to do multiculturalism fairly well.

[Heraclitus]

Singapore seems to do multiculturalism fairly well.

They seem to be very selective about who they let in. But unlike Canada they are quite heavy on policing and are a bit more authoritarian, so its another interesting data point.