London Calling

[MOBIUS]

I think I had 4 secondary school choices: 2 abysmally ****; 1 fairly good (at the time, before turning abysmally ****!) and 1 very good. I went to the fairly good one because my mother couldn't be bothered jumping through a few hoops to pretend to be a good Christian as it was a C of E school. Am I bitter...?

[MikeH]

I think if you have parents who have the time and inclination to help with your education you'll outperform those who don't, the school is a lesser part of that, although parents who have the time and inclination to help their kids will also tend to try harder or have the means to move into the catchment areas of good schools which increases the quality of the school overall.

I think there is a general issue that it is up to schools to teach kids, rather than a combination of schools and parents. And there's certainly an issue where parents won't support teachers in disciplining children.

[C0ckney]

i think most people would agree that the most important thing is to have a good local school to send their children. the argument seems to be how to achieve that. i think that allowing new schools to open in areas where there is poor provision for education will help to drive up standards. i have heard some people complaining that they fear that competition will force schools to close. frankly i think that a lot of our worst schools closing would be no bad thing.

i went to a terrible school in london for a few years. it's a scandal that in 2011, there are still so many bad schools in the UK. i think what the government is doing will improve the situation.

[MikeH]

Increasing choice has meant increasing the hoops you have to jump through to get your kids into a good school. So the more able, better educated, more inclined to help parents succeed more than the less able, less well educated parents to get their kids into the good schools.

So it makes things a bit better for middle class and rich kids at the expense of the poor kids, who get stuck with whatever school places are left.

[C0ckney]

could you explain a little further what you mean there by incrreasing hoops mike?

[MikeH]

Have you seen school application forms these days?

All the schools have different criteria for how they pick pupils, you have to research all the schools and 'tune' your application to increase your chances of getting a place at the school you want.

This is the guide Reading Council have provided to help parents (application forms aren't available now, wrong time of year)

http://ww2.reading.gov.uk/documents/education/admissions/RBC%20PRIMARY%20GUIDE%2015.10.9%20v1.pdf

It's ridiculous.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Schoolslearninganddevelopment/ChoosingASchool/DG_4016369

[MikeH]

Also, as you can now apply to schools further afield, it's means if you are a poor kid living near a good school you still might not get a place if some busy body middle class parent (like me) writes a more convincing application than your parents.

[C0ckney]

hmmm yeah that does seem a bit excessive but wasn't it always ever thus. maybe i'm just too young (started secondary in 1995), but i seem to remember a similar process when i was starting school. the church shcools would want to give places to church going families, various schools had some form of special admissions criteria. you could also apply to schools outside the catchment area then, i know my parents did, a couple were like 6 or 7 miles away (this doesn't seem like much, but remember it's london). i don't remember the process for primary schools though, maybe it was more straightforward.

i think the problem of middle class parents moving to be near a good school has always been there, and probably always will be.

[MikeH]

It's always been a pain, but now every school can choose which criteria to use, and have a wider set of criteria they can choose from in the olden days it was more consistent for each school wanting the same things. (I think)

[MikeH]

i know my parents did, a couple were like 6 or 7 miles away (this doesn't seem like much, but remember it's london). i don't remember the process for primary schools though, maybe it was more straightforward.

Maybe different rules for different LEAs then.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

I lived in pretty good area (Binfield/Bracknell - Mike might know it), and I still sent my daughter to a private school ... tells you what I think about "state" public education system... that school was great, but with enough resources public system could be the same. Even the existing resources would have to be reallocated to start with and than you need increased staff numbers (for the pay which is questionable), but not even the pay is the biggest issue, it is the the principles of what/how you teach, the inbuilt working class culture of "uni/education is not for me" (elsewhere internationally this type of attitude is: WTF?!? ), parents who do not really care enough as they are busy, and you know "money" + "no time" = ???, and on top of it all for the school - other hurdles (metrics) which are meant to provide focus by mechanical means.

Ultimately it does not work, the teachers should be both the educators and the parents to packs of 30 kids at a time... being that to them is beyond tough, and you do it for the "money", basically no social respect or any other kind of recognition... definitely a lot better money elsewhere with less effort for those able. Those unable, stay, ignore the kids like their parents do, focus on the few "able" in the class, and ignore the rest as they are anyhow ignored elsewhere, like at home... the kids are what they are, they learn to live with it and UK is where it is.

The "national service" proposed by Cameron is an excellent idea in principle, to create a system to supplant the failing educational system (at least to create some basis for working ethics and practical engagement), but what is the bet that due to the underlying English apathy this will be another attempt which will miss the target. I think you would benefit the most from re-introduction of the army service, at least the army has a clear focus, and the all kids inside would learn what respect means, but even if you had that , what is the bet that some idiot politician would send them to the next Iraq, when the first opportunity arises to support the next superpower. All in all, screwed from many different directions, with no exit in sight, and in the end you have (many) schools which are so poor that they are pointless in principle, except as a place where to leave the children/teens at taxpayers expense.

[MikeH]

Bracknell a good area?!

I don't really know Binfield but Bracknell is hell.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

well... it falls under Bracknell technically but could as well fall under Wokingham, it did for school catchment area anyhow at the time...

[MikeH]

Wokingham is nice. What's wrong with Wokingham schools? (I haven't looked at them, don't plan on moving there)

[OneFootInTheGrave]

What can 1 hour walking do... from Great Hollands (worst neighbourhood in Bracknell) to Wokingham (kind of nice, and definitely rich... ) - that is another amazing aspect of UK... so close (distance wise), but yet so far away in every other way... I was in Binfield - on the good side of A329

As for Wokingham schools, English standard wise, they are very good... schools generally score well, but the issues are in general, "too many" kids in classes, teacher lack of attention, issues with bullying ... the usual. Private schools are clearly better, but IMO there is no need for such a gap, if existing investments were made adequately. Even though I would think they need to be increased overall as education should be the most important governmental investment priority, higher than welfare or even NHS... let alone military...