Thread in which the world laughs at America

[DaShi]

This makes no sense whatsoever. The instant somebody tells you how much of GDP "comes from" consumption as the basis for any argument, you can immediately begin ignoring everything they say.

You pretty much do that anyway.

[SlowwHand]

uh oh

[DaShi]

Oh no he didn't!

[Jon Miller]

You disagree that a wealthy person gets more out of society than a poor person?

JM

[KrazyHorse]

You disagree that a wealthy person gets more out of society than a poor person?

No. I am pointing out that you transitioned seamlessly from talking about desert to claiming your argument hd nothing to do with desert.

[Jon Miller]

I am not claiming that it is fairness that should cause the wealthy to pay a greater percent.

I am claiming that the wish for society to continue and to continue to benefit them should cause the wealthy to pay a greater percent.

JM

[KrazyHorse]

I am not claiming that it is fairness that should cause the wealthy to pay a greater percent.

I am claiming that the wish for society to continue and to continue to benefit them should cause the wealthy to pay a greater percent.

JM

See below...

[KrazyHorse]

I am not claiming that it is fairness that should cause the wealthy to pay a greater percent.

I am claiming that the wish for society to continue and to continue to benefit them should cause the wealthy to pay a greater percent.

JM

If I could put you on ignore for this piece of tripe, I would.

[Jon Miller]

Wealthy people have a greater interest in society continuing how it is, and not in some other way.

Society won't unless more money is spent, therefore the wealthy should pay a greater percent.

JM

[KrazyHorse]

The question is, is such distortion truly bad?

It is unnecessary. I am an inveterate redistributionist. However, I think that we need to tax and redistribute in the most efficient way possible. A hollowed-out tax system with high top marginal rates is inefficient and provides very little if your concern is for the truly needy. If, on the other hand, your concern is to pamper upper middle-class married people with children as much as possible, then you get what we have.

[KrazyHorse]

I'm sure KH will claim that any payroll tax distorts the market, fine, I still want to remove the cap so that everyone pays the exact same percentage of income.

Payroll taxes are the least distortionary of the US's income taxes...

[KrazyHorse]

I don't take much consideration of the poor paying anything when the bottom 50% of america owns like ~2% of the wealth. They really are not getting near as much out of society as the wealthy, and to have a small tax change (like reversing the bush tax cuts) would create as much revenue as taxing 50% of the poors wealth.

It really is just stupid to tax the poor in a capitalist society.

JM

What makes you think that wealth has anything to do with it? Wealth is deferred consumption. That's it. Punishing those who choose to consume tomorrow rather that today makes no sense that I can see.

[KrazyHorse]

Wealthy people have a greater interest in society continuing how it is, and not in some other way.

Society won't unless more money is spent, therefore the wealthy should pay a greater percent.

JM

Holy ****, jon. What the **** is this other than a desert or fairness argument?

Instead of contenting yourself with platitudes how about you apply some analytic thought once in a while?

What are the goals of government? I would say that they should be twofold:

1) The provision of public goods (e.g. police, defence, enforcements of private agreements, etc)
2) The redistribution of income from those whose marginal utility of income is high to those whose marginal utility of income is low in order to maximize overall well-being

In deciding how best government should go about its job, the primary consideration is the harm that government does through its interventions versus the good it does. In order to understand that, the most important thing is the understanding of the mechanisms by which its actions impact the private decisions of its citizens and quantitative information on the importance of these mechanisms. In other words, we need to understand economics. Arguments based on any sort of claim about fairness or justice or desert are mere distractions.

[Jon Miller]

Wealth is a lot more than deferred consumption.

Wealth is insurance against bad times/etc, it is a safety net.

Concentrated wealth is a good in and of itself. It provides power and control. This is generally above middle class level in the US.

Wealth is a lot more than just deferred consumption. Wealth serves as deferred consumption and insurance for all classes of people. It only serves as a good in and of itself, providing power and control, for the wealthy.

Jon

[Dinner]

Payroll taxes are the least distortionary of the US's income taxes...

Good, then you won't mind the cap being removed from this one.