A Game of Thrones - TV Show Discussion Thread

[Guynemer]

No, it's not, unless you mean they're both wrong. They aren't indistinguishable acts, and you're just being dishonest now if you maintain that.

Yes, they are both WRONG WRONG WRONG, because they are both ****ing theft. See above.

[Guynemer]

It is not wrong to read Shakespeare; it would be wrong (and utterly unnecessary) to steal Shakespeare in order to read it.


I fail to see how it is extremely likely that copyright violators do not represent lost sales.





I enjoy the NHL playoffs. I want to watch it on a big-screen HDTV. So I'm going to go to Best Buy and grab the biggest ****ing one I can find and walk out the door. I'd never actually pay for it, mind you; it's not like anyone is losing a sale here.

[Kuciwalker]

Of course. How dare I question the intentions of the people downloading a piece of media for free. Stop being so ****ing oblivious, you know full well that people download games, music, books, etc., simply because a) they want it, and b) they don't want to pay for it. Most would pay for it if they didn't have the option to be a spoiled, arrogant, demanding little ****.

Stop being an idiot, Guy. You were responding directly to the sentence "ff none of those people were going to buy the work at the price demanded, the author is still no worse off." Moreover, you have no way of knowing that your claim is true. It is not only possible, but extremely likely that the majority of copyright violations do not represent lost sales, simply because of the scale of music piracy compared to the scale of actual CD sales.

And I want to sleep with Alison Brie. It's not wrong to want to do so. To actually do it is another matter entirely.

Wait, it's wrong the read Shakespeare?

[Kuciwalker]

No, it's not, unless you mean they're both wrong. They aren't indistinguishable acts, and you're just being dishonest now if you maintain that.

[Guynemer]

The difference between theft and infringement is that theft deprives the victim of a possession while infringement deprives them of an economic benefit. That's why your restaurant analogy breaks down. If I copy Galnemer's novel, she doesn't lose a copy of the book that she paid to publish, she simply isn't compensated for her efforts. It's wrong, but it's not the same thing. That's also why it's different from you breaking into my house and stealing my TV.

It is not the same thing legally, but it is the same thing morally.

[Guynemer]

1) "Individual"

I see. So it only becomes a problem when more than one person does it. Makes perfect sense.

2) If none of those people were going to buy the work at the price demanded, the author is still no worse off.

Of course. How dare I question the intentions of the people downloading a piece of media for free. Stop being so ****ing oblivious, you know full well that people download games, music, books, etc., simply because a) they want it, and b) they don't want to pay for it. Most would pay for it if they didn't have the option to be a spoiled, arrogant, demanding little ****.

I want to read Shakespeare without paying for it either. Is that wrong?

And I want to sleep with Alison Brie. It's not wrong to want to do so. To actually do it is another matter entirely.

[Addled Platypus]

Camelot any better ?

[Felch]

The difference between theft and infringement is that theft deprives the victim of a possession while infringement deprives them of an economic benefit. That's why your restaurant analogy breaks down. If I copy Galnemer's novel, she doesn't lose a copy of the book that she paid to publish, she simply isn't compensated for her efforts. It's wrong, but it's not the same thing. That's also why it's different from you breaking into my house and stealing my TV.

[Aeson]

2) If none of those people were going to buy the work at the price demanded, the author is still no worse off.

This is actually not true given the inability to predict future price movements, user evaluations, and the ability to use the work as value towards other products/services (eg. buy X and get a free copy of Y!)

[Kuciwalker]

You couldn't be wronger. If hundreds or thousands of people steal a book or a game, the publisher gets less money, and it appears that the producer of the work in question is underperforming, even though the number of people reading the book/listening to the music/whatever might be exactly what they expected, or even more than expected. Underperforming producers of works generally don't get the opportunity to produce anything else. The pirates harm the authors.

1) "Individual"
2) If none of those people were going to buy the work at the price demanded, the author is still no worse off.

You continue to try to dress up the fact that you are defending people who want a service without paying jack **** for it. I remain amazed that you deny this is theft, by any and every definition of the word.

I want to read Shakespeare without paying for it either. Is that wrong?

[Guynemer]

As an individual act? Nothing. In fact, if you wouldn't have bought the work at the price demanded, you have increased social welfare by pirating it!

You couldn't be wronger. If hundreds or thousands of people steal a book or a game, the publisher gets less money, and it appears that the producer of the work in question is underperforming, even though the number of people reading the book/listening to the music/whatever might be exactly what they expected, or even more than expected. Underperforming producers of works generally don't get the opportunity to produce anything else. The pirates harm the authors.

You continue to try to dress up the fact that you are defending people who want a service without paying jack **** for it. I remain amazed that you deny this is theft, by any and every definition of the word.

[Kuciwalker]

1. So what then do they deserve?

They don't deserve anything. Legally we grant them certain privileges; those may or may not be the privileges we ought to grant them, and morally there's a decent case for ignoring the law as written and following the law as it ought to be written. You yourself made that case when you denied that (5) was theft, even though it was illegal.

(Aside: the notion of desert is incoherent. Universally we decide people "deserve" something if it's in our own interest to establish their claim to it as a general rule. This alone is identical between real property and intellectual "property".)

2. So if copyright benefits the rest of us, what exactly does circumventing copyrights by downloading works you haven't paid for do?

As an individual act? Nothing. In fact, if you wouldn't have bought the work at the price demanded, you have increased social welfare by pirating it!

Of course, society has a lot of difficult enforcing the rule "you can download it for free if you wouldn't have bought it, but otherwise you have to pay", and even individuals have difficulty correctly following that rule - the incentives to self-deceive are strong. But treating "theft" piracy as identical to theft, morally, definitely produces absurd answers, as you showed in #163.

[Guynemer]

No. Thank you.

[Guynemer]

1. So what then do they deserve?

2. So if copyright benefits the rest of us, what exactly does circumventing copyrights by downloading works you haven't paid for do?



As for the morality of theft: yes, theft is theft is theft. However, I don't think one can steal from a dead person in the same way we're talking about here. I'd be all for making the copyright period end at the death of the producer of the work in question.

[Kuciwalker]

I don't know why there is a legal distinction between one day and the next.

But you presumably know why there's a moral distinction, since you asserted one! It's theft the day before and not theft the day after. Are you using "theft" to just mean "against the law", with no moral connotations? Or do you attach moral weight to your idea of theft, beyond just the idea of "it's good to follow the law"?

But without the copyright existing at all, without making piracy theft, why would anyone produce works in the first place?

That's an excellent argument for a legal regime in which authors are granted limited, temporary monopolies on copying and distribution of original works. It benefits the rest of us! That doesn't, however, seem to explain why the authors are morally entitled to it. We've given them this monopoly as a matter of expedience, not because they "deserve" it.