A Game of Thrones - TV Show Discussion Thread

[Ecthy]

I see it more of just refecting the social systems of Westeros. Like the middle ages everything isn't fair or neatly inline with modern viewpoints nor does society have the same age of consent. That is why you see pre-teens getting married but we also see a huge amount of that in real history.

And what do you know about society of westeros? The author isn't to blame for a lot of choices the showrunners made. Also, depiction is not endorsement, and the show endorses a lot of problematic stuff, by providing violence against women that does not serve the story. Do you remember Ros? Was there any point in her violent death? Like we didn't know Jofrey was literally a bastard? Oh, let's use a woman's body as a projection plane for violent imagination, just because we can.

And Dry, you can name numerous examples ofhow the show has "strong women" like Brienne, but that doesn't really help with refuting a totaly different statement, namely that the show treats women disrespectfully.

You're also a bit of a whiner, aren't you? Butthurt that other people would support critical ideas that you don't?

[Lorizael]

I see it more of just refecting the social systems of Westeros. Like the middle ages everything isn't fair or neatly inline with modern viewpoints nor does society have the same age of consent. That is why you see pre-teens getting married but we also see a huge amount of that in real history.

Yes, the well known Westerosi social system of obliquely explaining your secret evil motives while instructing two women how to ****.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Some have also argued that there is a pornographic element to the sexual violence against women in the show (see Sansa) but I don't know that I necessarily agree with that interpretation.

It's hard to describe anything as pornographic when it happens completely off-camera.

[pchang]

Probably says more about the arguers than it does about the show.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Meanwhile, back on the show, the last one was one of the best from an actor perspective. Ian McShane stole the episode- they could have filmed all of his bit with him entirely hidden in a sack, and he would still have out-charisma'd all challengers. Good showing from the Hound too, who is really shaping up as a damned fine actor.

With Tim McInnerny showing up too, they've clearly got Britain's better screen actors all queueing up to be featured. How long before Helen Mirren, Tilda Swinton, Mark Rylance and Gary Oldman show up?

[BeBMan]

Haven't seen the most recent ep. yet.

Re display of sex/violence:

IMO the 1st tends to become a waste of screen time after a while (unless for those who cannot access the intarweb) if it appears not to be story-related but just to display moar tits. It's not like there's something wrong with tits as such , but the show does other things very good (and better than a bunch of other shows), and I'd rather have more of that instead.

The 2nd feels sometimes overdone (I had that impression with the repeated torture stuff of Theon). Yes, you could make the argument that torture *was/is* brutal/sadistic. The question is what it really adds when you make that point again and again.

[Dinner]

And what do you know about society of westeros? The author isn't to blame for a lot of choices the showrunners made. Also, depiction is not endorsement, and the show endorses a lot of problematic stuff, by providing violence against women that does not serve the story. Do you remember Ros? Was there any point in her violent death? Like we didn't know Jofrey was literally a bastard? Oh, let's use a woman's body as a projection plane for violent imagination, just because we can.

And Dry, you can name numerous examples ofhow the show has "strong women" like Brienne, but that doesn't really help with refuting a totaly different statement, namely that the show treats women disrespectfully.

You're also a bit of a whiner, aren't you? Butthurt that other people would support critical ideas that you don't?

With Ros they just merged several female characters together and used it to 1) eliminate unneeded excess characters from the show 2) Show how evil Joffrey could be 3) Shpw how ruthless Little Finger was. Basically, the show writers merged up several dimilar characters then tied up a loose end in a way to help show viewers a bit about the remaining characters.

On one hand it is more efficient than GRRM's use of multiple similar characters (designed to show more about common positions held by low born women in that society) and make it more tv friendly.

[Dry]

And what do you know about society of westeros? The author isn't to blame for a lot of choices the showrunners made. Also, depiction is not endorsement, and the show endorses a lot of problematic stuff, by providing violence against women that does not serve the story. Do you remember Ros? Was there any point in her violent death? Like we didn't know Jofrey was literally a bastard? Oh, let's use a woman's body as a projection plane for violent imagination, just because we can.

And Dry, you can name numerous examples ofhow the show has "strong women" like Brienne, but that doesn't really help with refuting a totaly different statement, namely that the show treats women disrespectfully.

Well, I indeed heard the complain. What I pointed out was there was no disrespect (sexism) on the female character level. So, the *FULL* sexism was not really *FULL*. Or *FULL* does not have the meaning I think it has...
Even if not *FULL*, I was asking where was the sexism. Disrespect of female actresses? Female viewers?
As I understand from the answer above it is none of these, it is a more about the gratuitous female nudity scenes. It is not a crime against a person, it is more against a concept.
The scene that comes to mind is the lesbian scene (season 1 or 2?) in the brothel with Little Finger.
This I do understand. But I understand it as unbalanced, I understand my IRL female friends getting upset about it, because the gay scene between Sir Loras and his lover was not as... hot.
So yes, unbalance between how the genders are treated in this aspect. A few (maybe too many) lurid scenes to get more viewers.
The problem I have is with *FULL*. As if the show had zero respect for women. As if they were disrespected left and right. I disagreed with that. The show does not give a general bad idea of women. They are not treated like crap.
So, yes, I still fail to see how the show is *FULL* of sexism.

You're also a bit of a whiner, aren't you? Butthurt that other people would support critical ideas that you don't?

Sick and tired is a better word.
Sick and tired of people claiming to know how other feels, or how they should feel.
White people claiming to know what it is to be black, males claiming to know what it is to be female (and vice versa), adults claiming to know what it is to be a child, a teenager.

I'm sick and tired of spokespersons claiming to speak in the name of the many, while they speak in the name of a few.
I do not hear around me, by IRL female friends these "critical ideas" as a major problem.
The only IRL female friend that support those "critical ideas" you speak about, with the same intensity, is one young (22yo) woman. That's far from a dominant position. Around me all other females do not like the female-as-decoration thing, but none of them sees that as a major problem in the show. The strong female characters are much more important to them and redeem that 'problem' completely.
IRL female friends do not watch the show for 2 main reasons:
1. they do not like fantasy,
2. the level of violence (often present in fantasy worlds).
The way women are treated is far down the list.

So, yes, sick and tired of people telling me (and others) how I feel, how I react, which stereotype I follow... without ever asking the question.
Sick and tired of people whining in the name of others who, when asked, do not whine so much...

[Lorizael]

White people claiming to know what it is to be black, males claiming to know what it is to be female (and vice versa), adults claiming to know what it is to be a child, a teenager.

Humans claiming to know what it's like to be a bat...

[Bereta_Eder]

[Proteus_MST]

Do you mean a show
where Brienne of Tarth is probably the best fighter in Westeros. She wins vs Sir Loras in that tournement, she stands her ground vs Jaimie Lannister on that bridge, she takes down the Hound 1 on 1, where the 4 men in that inn could not. So far she beat every male 'best fighter' she came accross.
Or where Denaerys could rally all Dothracki tribes behind her where Khal Drogo couldn't?
Or where Meera Reed is the physically and mentally strongest character of the Reed Family. Where she is the 'protector' of the whole Bran expedition in the North? That her physically weaker brother Jojen is now dead?
Or where Asha is the mentally strongest character of the Greyjoy family. She has leadership qualities both as captain of a ship and as leader of the iron islands?
Or where Lady Olenna Tyrell is the true politician head in the Tyrell family?
Or where Maegery Tyrel is probably the smartest person in all Westeros?
Or young Lyanna Mormont (10y old) is the only one to dare to tell Ramsey to f**k himself?
Or a show that has shifted from the war of the 5 kings, to almost the war of the 5 queens (Cersei, Margery, Daenarys, Asha, Ellaria Sand)?

A show that tells us that politically able, influential male leaders (Tywin Lannister, Randyl Tarly, Mad King, Baylon & Euron Greyjoy, Stannis ...) are *******s with no human qualities, but female ones (Olenna Tyrell, Daenarys Targaryen, Asha Greyjoy, ...) have those qualities along with leadership qualities, is sexist?

According to you, which non disabled, living, male leader or champion is portrayed mostly as 'good'?
Sir Davos is not really a leader,
Jaimie Lannister lost a hand,
Tyron is a dwarf,
Varys & Greyworm have no balls,
Ned and Rob Stark are dead.
Raeghar Targaryen is dead.
Baristan Selmy is dead.

The message I get from that show is: if you're not a dwarf, a bastard or a fatty, the only way to be a good guy (and a leader) is : cut your balls, cut your hand or die.

Where is the show *FULL* of sexism?

I don't see the show as particularly male-friendly, honestly.
You really think that show promotes manhood, maleness and shames femininity?

When you watch that show you are proud to be male? Really?

And the best captain of ther ironborn (and almost queen) also is a woman and likes to have sex with girls ...
whereas her brother, reek, the designated heir is a former slave who is missing his dong and doesn't like to have sex anymore

[ricketyclik]

I want more gratuitous sex scenes

[korn469]

Do you mean a show
where Brienne of Tarth is probably the best fighter in Westeros. She wins vs Sir Loras in that tournement, she stands her ground vs Jaimie Lannister on that bridge, she takes down the Hound 1 on 1, where the 4 men in that inn could not. So far she beat every male 'best fighter' she came accross.
Or where Denaerys could rally all Dothracki tribes behind her where Khal Drogo couldn't?
Or where Meera Reed is the physically and mentally strongest character of the Reed Family. Where she is the 'protector' of the whole Bran expedition in the North? That her physically weaker brother Jojen is now dead?
Or where Asha is the mentally strongest character of the Greyjoy family. She has leadership qualities both as captain of a ship and as leader of the iron islands?
Or where Lady Olenna Tyrell is the true politician head in the Tyrell family?
Or where Maegery Tyrel is probably the smartest person in all Westeros?
Or young Lyanna Mormont (10y old) is the only one to dare to tell Ramsey to f**k himself?
Or a show that has shifted from the war of the 5 kings, to almost the war of the 5 queens (Cersei, Margery, Daenarys, Asha, Ellaria Sand)?

A show that tells us that politically able, influential male leaders (Tywin Lannister, Randyl Tarly, Mad King, Baylon & Euron Greyjoy, Stannis ...) are *******s with no human qualities, but female ones (Olenna Tyrell, Daenarys Targaryen, Asha Greyjoy, ...) have those qualities along with leadership qualities, is sexist?

According to you, which non disabled, living, male leader or champion is portrayed mostly as 'good'?
Sir Davos is not really a leader,
Jaimie Lannister lost a hand,
Tyron is a dwarf,
Varys & Greyworm have no balls,
Ned and Rob Stark are dead.
Raeghar Targaryen is dead.
Baristan Selmy is dead.

The message I get from that show is: if you're not a dwarf, a bastard or a fatty, the only way to be a good guy (and a leader) is : cut your balls, cut your hand or die.

Where is the show *FULL* of sexism?

I don't see the show as particularly male-friendly, honestly.
You really think that show promotes manhood, maleness and shames femininity?

When you watch that show you are proud to be male? Really?

You want a good male character? I know of one.

Petyr Baelish

I know we all love the Starks and the Lanisters. Some people even love The Targs. I mean Dany is a awesome conqueror and Queen right? She can sack slavers bay. She can unite the Dothraki, where Khal Drogo couldn't. Yet, I bet if Khal Drogo had three dragons and was immune to fire, while Dany didn't have dragons and wasn't immune to fire he would have been somewhat more feared and she would be of little note.

In my opinion, we have one character that embodies what makes modern society a great place. We have an individual who believes in a meritocracy. He knows about investing money and good governance. He is willing to flaunt cultural mores, because they are inflexible undervalue good people. He also believes in good hygiene and is progressive enough to keep the woman who loves him sexually fulfilled and treat her like an equal. I don't think anyone else but Jon Snow is like that in the books.

Yes he's had to do some cruel and horrible acts, but you don't undermine a repressive feudal regime by being nice. Forget Dany and her plot armor. If anyone is going to break the wheel of the great houses in Westeros, it's going to be Littlefinger.

[ricketyclik]

You want a good male character? I know of one.

In my opinion, we have one character that embodies what makes modern society a great place. We have an individual who believes in a meritocracy. He knows about investing money and good governance. He is willing to flaunt cultural mores, because they are inflexible undervalue good people. He also believes in good hygiene and is progressive enough to keep the woman who loves him sexually fulfilled and treat her like an equal. I don't think anyone else but Jon Snow is like that in the books.

I thought you were going to say Tyrion.

[grumbler]

I thought you were going to say Tyrion.

And I thought he was going to say Bronn.