Long working hours kill.

[C0ckney]

You and me both dude. I billed a monstrous 32 hours last week.

poor KH has to work 32 in a day

i don't think i've worked more than 20 hours in one week since i came to brasil.

[MikeH]

It's a nice theory.

Yeah... but arguably the reason there's so little difference between our parties in the US and UK is because there's evolved a consensus in what balance we want between 'nanny state' and 'market freedom' and all the parties are arguing over is the little things that are marginal calls between the two.

[Dinner]

WTF? Are British people so stupid that they work longer than they have to when there is no possible upside to them?

People will do all sorts of things if they think it will help them keep their jobs. I routinely work plenty of hours I don't actually charge to any project because I want it to look good when the project is finished. Of course, I'm a project manager and I get graded on my review on how well I've performed while keeping things under budget. That's my choice but it most certainly can and does get abused by some employers.

[C0ckney]

and mike is right. the idea that workers can choose their conditions is a fiction for many, especially the less educated and lower paid.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

It comes down to the idea that not every individual has the power to choose what is good for them without help from the legislator. The reality is that many people aren't highly educated and able to pick and choose their own terms of employment.

By the same token, why should employers have legislation governing safety rules? Shouldn't the employee be able to choose to work in an unsafe environment? You could argue, and I'm sure you will, that of course they should have that choice. Fine, but if you are in a situation where you have to take any job for any money in any working conditions this means you'll effectively be forced to "choose" to work for a pittance in a dangerous environment which of course at the start of the Victorian era was exactly what was happening. Combine the choice of the employer to allow people to 'choose' to work for less and less, and to 'choose' to work in unsafe environments and to 'choose' to work any length of hours and you soon end up back in the Victorian situation of young kids working 16 hour days in lethal sweat shops for a pittance with everything that brought with it.

If that's what you want to go back to...

no he wants you to work 16 hours shifts in the office for an Indian wage of 300$ per month so that he can get a bigger bonus

[MikeH]

I'm not sure what KH says here necessarily always reflects what he may or may not personally believe, but his challenges certainly do make you go back and really think about whatever the issue is so you can come back with a response which might be in some way meaningful.

Not that I'm claiming my responses are really there yet... I've got a lot of thinking to do on this before I feel like I've got a fully coherent answer.

[MikeH]

ie. mostly I think KH is saying "your reasons for believing that are stupid" rather than "what you believe is stupid".

More often than not the two do go together, but there's a clear distinction.

[KrazyHorse]

Saying the legislator doesn't know better than the individual misses the point that the individual selected the legislator.

I'm having trouble believing that you are this mimd-numbimgly retarded.

Nobody chooses their own legislators. A mob of other people do. That is the problem.

[MikeH]

A mob of other people including the individual.

Why should one individual have more right to select their legislation than the crowd?

Feel free to choose your own job in a society of 1.

[MikeH]

People need food, shelter, sanitation, healthcare, protection. At a fundamental level everyone has the same interests. Personal wealth is virtually irrelevant if those things are covered.

[KrazyHorse]

and mike is right. the idea that workers can choose their conditions is a fiction for many, especially the less educated and lower paid.

i.e. you and me are smart enough to act in our own self-interest, but god forbid the hoi polloi attempt it. Let us protect them from themselves...

[MikeH]

No. Our labour is valuable enough that we are powerful enough to act in our own self interest. This has nothing to do with being smart enough.

[MikeH]

Being smart might make our labour more valuable, or it might not depending on our area of expertise.

[MikeH]

I'm having trouble believing that you are this mimd-numbimgly retarded.

Nobody chooses their own legislators. A mob of other people do. That is the problem.

So do you think it's best to have no legislators and let the market drive everything?

[Krill]

Troll, KH?