Why do Christians care so much about the Ten Commandments?

[Robert]

What Jon said. We are not under the law. Doesn't means we shouldn't try to follow the law.

Not according to Paul:

Romans 7
8 but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin [is] dead. 9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; 10 and the commandment, which [was] unto life, this I found [to be] unto death: 11 for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.

Not to mention that it's a weird way of reasoning. "We're not told to not follow it so we should at least try it".

But most important: you should not try to follow the law b/c you're supposed to be filled with the Holy Spirit and let him write God's true will in your heart. The letter kills but the spirit makes alive.

Nikolai: We are no longer under the law, but Paul states countless times that that does not mean we shouldn't follow it.

Where?

I suggest you read up on Paul's letter to the Romans, especially chapter 2(the law is written in our hearts, and our natural instinct is to follow it because it is natural, even though we don't know God).

Chapter 2 is about how everybody will be judged by the law. Even the gentiles who do not have the law. And they will be saved by the law, even if they don't know it.
It's a setup in the entire dogmatic explanation of Romans 2-8. In 2 the basement of the law as the tool for judgment is explained. Only in Romans 8 Paul explains how the christians lives, indeed: by the Spirit.

Romans chapter 3 tells us that we can't be saved by following the law, but the Bible needs to be read as a whole, and in James 2 we are told that faith without deeds are not possible, they are closely connected.

Of course. We should live by the law of love, and indeed show good deeds. But not b/c some old letters tell us, but b/c we've been renewed by the Spirit. The law can't help us to do good deeds (Romans 7). On contrary, it pushes us to sin (b/c we are evil, not b/c the law is). Compare the statement that says that you're not allowed to touch the painting, then you suddenly have an extra urge to touch it.

So the law must be abided, not for salvation in itself, but as a neccessary part of the saving faith.

Says Nikolai, but it's nowhere said in the New Testament.
Everytime the law is brought up, and it's important ongoing value, it's about the law as a basement for judgement. But those who are in Christ are judged by the law in Christ, and have gone through the judgement in Christ (Romans 7) and are now death for the law. Nowhere the law is mentioned as a tool for living a good life.

This is as such the context you need to read Romans 4 in. And last, before I go(I have an appointment), read Romans 6, especially verse 15 and onwards.

You mix up "not sinning" with "keeping the law".
Of course we should not sin. An extra reason to not keep the law, b/c the law pushes us to sin (b/c of our sinful nature).

I'm not lawless, a person who can do anything and everything he likes to do. That's not what I stand for. All I say is that we live the law of love, renewed by the spirit, to serve God in the newness of the spirit and not in the ancientness of the letter.

[Robert]

So you're saying that people have things like "don't eat pork" and "no mixed fabrics" written on their hearts?

The law is a way to show that we are sinners and aren't able to chose good over bad.
Many of the Mosaic laws had healthy meanings for those days that aren't necessary for these days. But our days would need new laws. It's not as if the Bible tells us how to deal with modern traffic, poor children 10,000 miles away or drugs.
Every set of laws is always limited in time and context.

The Mosaic laws were only given to Israel. It's a way to show that one is a sinner.
The law in the hearts of Romans 2 is not that gentiles weren't allowed to not eat pork, as if eating pork is that important. The Question is if the gentiles live up to their own consciousness or not. If the gentiles are able to live good or not.

Ever since Genesis 3 (the fall) it's been about the question: is man able to tell good apart from evil, or will it not be able to do so?
God's intention with us is not that we shall live perfect here on earth. We can't untill we are renewed (though we should at least try). The purpose is that we acknowledge that we're not able to judge upon good and evil. And the law is a tool to show us that we're not able. And if the law's not there, then we have our consciousness in our heart (Romans 2). Nobody can claim that he lives the perfect live, never hurting anyone else or himself, on purpose or by accident. So everybody is judgable. Nobody can say he did actually live the perfect good life. That's what Romans 2 is about.

No human except Jesus has been said about to be without sins. Even today most people still agree that Jesus was the best man who ever lived (or was made up). Even if they do not see him as God's son. Muslims say that Jesus never sinned (while Muhammed did! Muhammed is still being prayed for! Not for Jesus, who'll come on judgement day, not Muhammed!). Humanists, hindus, everybody sees Jesus as one of the best people who has ever lived (or was made up).
Ghandi said he did evil, Mother Theresa did, Martin Luther King. There has never been one human being who claimed to live perfect. That's what Romans 2 is about.

Nikolai: The Bible speaks very strongly against that view. Especially Paul. See Romans 6. Sin is to do bad against God or fellow humans. Sin is revealed by the law. See Romans 7.

We should indeed not sin. And if we claim that we do not sin, then the law will show us.
Sin is indeed revealed by the law. (among other means, like nature or our consciousness, see Romans 2).
But the law is not a tool to fight sin. So after you discovered that you are sinner (ie. by the law: Romans 7), then you move on the phase 2: how to stop sinning, not by keeping the law (that's not possible, Romans 7) but by living through the Spirit (Romans 8).

[Nikolai]

Robert, I refer you to my previous post from yesterday. It's obvious you haven't read it. I took for granted you would do as much. This is not something I say out of nowhere, I build my view on the Bible. Just read Romans and James, okay?

[Nikolai]

And for crying out loud, you can't stop sinning! That is plain out impossible as long as we are still affected by old Adam.

[Dinner]

A few years back Laz made a hilarious thread about old testament dietary restrictions.

[Robert]

Robert, I refer you to my previous post from yesterday. It's obvious you haven't read it. I took for granted you would do as much. This is not something I say out of nowhere, I build my view on the Bible. Just read Romans and James, okay?

I quoted and responded to it.
And I have explained my view on Romans. Why don't you counter it? (or accept it ).
You base you believe on a wrong reading of the Bible fueled by tradition and demagogy :P
Hence, show me wrong by answering my statements, not by arrogantly stating that I just have to read Romans again to see that you're right :P

[Robert]

And for crying out loud, you can't stop sinning! That is plain out impossible as long as we are still affected by old Adam.

So?

[King XII]

They don't. They just care about making sure they're on every government building even though they aren't actually interested in following said commandments in their personal lives.

[molly bloom]

A few years back Laz made a hilarious thread about old testament dietary restrictions.

There are also restrictions on the kinds of clothes you can wear, on when you can sleep with your wife (beware menstrual flow!), astrology, hair length...

" A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the LORD your God.


Deu 22:6 "If a bird's nest happens to be before you along the way, in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs, with the mother sitting on the young or on the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young;


Deu 22:7 "you shall surely let the mother go, and take the young for yourself, that it may be well with you and that you may prolong your days.


Deu 22:8 "When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring guilt of bloodshed on your household if anyone falls from it.


Deu 22:9 "You shall not sow your vineyard with different kinds of seed, lest the yield of the seed which you have sown and the fruit of your vineyard be defiled.


Deu 22:10 "You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together.


Deu 22:11 "You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, such as wool and linen mixed together.


Deu 22:12 "You shall make tassels on the four corners of the clothing with which you cover yourself.

King James Bible

Seen in this context 'The Life Of Brian' really didn't go far enough...

[Cort Haus]

Never put a sock in a toaster.
Never put jam on a magnet.

[MrFun]

****! I don't have any clothes with four tassles!!

[Imran Siddiqui]

In the discussion between Robert Plomp and Nikolai, I take the side of Robert. As we are discussing Romans, I reference Romans 7:4-6

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. (NIV 2011)

Released from the law and serving in the Spirit. The law does not bind anymore, but the Holy Spirit teaches us the proper way to live. Romans 6 and Romans 4 speak of not sinning anymore. However the law does not teach us sin anymore because Jesus has come, fulfilled the law, and sent his Spirit to teach us the proper way to live. The law was sent prior to Jesus's arrival on this planet to allow the Jews to know sin and what to avoid in order to get closer to God. But when Jesus came he showed us a new way, that applies to Jews as well as Gentiles, by the working of the Holy Spirit. It is the heart and not the mere following of laws that gets you closer to God.

[Nikolai]

Since we use the same bible references to argue our points, I guess it has no good use continuing it. I guess we just understand those words differently. For me, it's selfevident that while faith and grace is what saves, and not the law, deeds and as such the law cannot be separated from the equation. I'm strictly Lutheran on that point.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't think either Plompy or myself are arguing that deeds are irrelevant. Good works are the best evidence of faith. However, the law does not equal good works & in fact, the good works are those which are what the Holy Spirit leads us to do, not those which are mandated to be followed as a listing (as the law is).

[DaShi]

****! I don't have any clothes with four tassles!!

Then you'd better turn in your gay card!