CanPol: May(?) 2011 Election. Vote today!

[Fake Boris]

Isn't it a testament of this federation's failure that the only argument to keep us in is equalization?

Here's what would be my personal final offer to Canada: we give up equalization, you give us Meech.

[notyoueither]

I wouldn't say that's the only argument. I said the perception is that it is used for that purpose.

I think we'd all be worse off, more than economically, if Quebec (or the West) seperated.

[Fake Boris]

I know.

Perceptions are wrong both sides of the river. It's a common myth in Quebec that the federation is suckering our money... IMO this is true but only in a very indirect manner, which I would describe as the lack of direction and loss of efficiency that results from constant feuding between provincial and federal jurisdictions.

Quebec is full of francophone Ashers.

[notyoueither]

Quebec is full of francophone Ashers.

That's the impression I have.

[Fake Boris]

Right now I'm reading a study estimating the direct costs of oil dependency in Quebec to $15B/year (That's 5% of Quebec's GDP). These costs will only increase over the years.

This is an issue of growing concern in Quebec; that Ottawa is a direct sell-out of oil interests. If you look at the numbers, yes, Ottawa doesn't **** us, we get our fair share (and a bit more) of federal money. However it's increasingly obvious that the money isn't being spent on what we really need, i.e. massive investments in energy friendly programs to protect long term economic prospects.

If we shut down Harper's Arctic plan and tax cuts, our "share" of it would ~$3-5B/year for us to invest in mass transit, wind power, etc...

EDIT: I do understand that technically, Quebec is free to raise taxes to the extent Ottawa has diminished them. The problem lies with international trade; tax increases drive away investments to other provinces and countries. A consistent tax policy throughout Canada could counter that to a certain extent, but it's not happening.

[notyoueither]

Most any economist I read says the corporate tax cuts will result in more revenue over the long run than leaving it alone (or increasing it).

Is this study saying that petroleum production in Canada is costing Quebec $15B per year, or that running an oil based society is costing $15B per year?

[notyoueither]

If we shut down Harper's Arctic plan and tax cuts, our "share" of it would ~$3-5B/year for us to invest in mass transit, wind power, etc...

This, right here, is what pisses off so many people in the RoC. It's this attitude of **** the country, send us a check.

[Fake Boris]

If we shut down Harper's Arctic plan and tax cuts, our "share" of it would ~$3-5B/year for us to invest in mass transit, wind power, etc...

This, right here, is what pisses off so many people in the RoC. It's this attitude of **** the country, send us a check.

When I say "our share" though, I'm talking 20%, which is exactly our share of federal taxes we pay.

I don't expect anything more than what we pay.

I understand that this attitude depicts us as not being "members" of the country. It's two-way game; your attitude depicts Canada as a foreign power "reigning" on another nation.

We wouldn't be having this discussion if there weren't the linguistic barrier and we were just a smaller and poorer Ontario. Differences in language and culture draw people's attention towards the failings of the other group. "Tribalism" is deeply ingrained in human nature.

This isn't about to change. It's clear to me that Quebec and Canada should work together in a EU style alliance, and nothing more.

[notyoueither]

Yes, well, let us know when most of Quebec agrees with you. I think it is naive for you to assume that some sort of EU like relationship would be the result of a oui vote. Most of the rest of the country would feel very little inclination to continue subsidising fairy tales, I'd imagine.

As to your scheme to disband the federal government and send all the cash back to the provinces, I'm thinking a better plan would be to reduce taxes with unneeded federal revenue.

In the meantime, the Arctic is a Canadian interest, and the feds should direct money to further that interest. Should the expens not be needed, kicking back to the provinces would be the lasrt choice for the funds.

[Fake Boris]

Why would Canada shoot itself in the leg to inflict Quebec a headshot?

Realpolitik speaks. Our economic interests are too intertwined to play hardball.
And conventional wisdom says you can't pretend you will during a referendum.

[Fake Boris]

In the end, a referendum is more likely than you think (though it is still a relatively small probability).

Sovereignty polled at 53% somewhere back in 2005. Let something like that happen with the PQ in power, a few bad campaign moves by Harper, and the threat is real.

[Asher]

I said it was a long story.

In reality GDP growth per capita is nearly the same in Quebec and Ontario since the 70s.

And "refugees"

Ontario and Quebec are increasingly less important. Canada is increasingly being powered by the West. That's not going to change any time soon.

[Asher]

Isn't it a testament of this federation's failure that the only argument to keep us in is equalization?

Here's what would be my personal final offer to Canada: we give up equalization, you give us Meech.

Counteroffer: Shut the **** up, stop taking my money; or get the **** out.

You need us, we don't need you. Show more respect and take less money.

[Asher]

In the end, a referendum is more likely than you think (though it is still a relatively small probability).

Sovereignty polled at 53% somewhere back in 2005. Let something like that happen with the PQ in power, a few bad campaign moves by Harper, and the threat is real.

Quebec is famous for polling high on the issue when there's nothing on the line. When the vote happens for real, they chicken out.

Nothing would make me happier than to watch Quebec separate and flail and beg for money, access to the Canadian currency, free-trade agreements, etc. Squirm, *****es.

Unlike NYE, I disagree that Canada is better with Quebec in it. I think many Canadians are just USED to Quebec being in it.

Tell me, what does Quebec contribute to Canada? What would we lose with Quebec leaving, other than absurd product packaging regulations demanding bilingualism?

[Fake Boris]

'Beg' for NAFTA?