CanPol: May(?) 2011 Election. Vote today!

[Wezil]

I smell a rat.

OTTAWA — The Conservatives easily survived the budget vote Tuesday, the defeat of which would have brought down the minority government and triggered an election.

While passage of the budget, which was opposed by the opposition Liberals and New Democrats, but supported by the Bloc Quebecois, was widely expected, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said later he was “delighted” and Finance Minister Jim Flaherty said he was “thrilled.”

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=176fc4c4-05d0-49ee-833a-e9bab261382d

That's from March 27th, 2007.

I too smell a rat. Harper laid down (lay down?) with separatists.

[Wezil]

And the final vote on June 12, 2007

OTTAWA -- Conservative and Bloc Quebecois MPs joined forces Tuesday to approve federal budget legislation that includes bitterly contested arrangements that have spurred three premiers to complain that Prime Minister Stephen Harper has broken a key election promise.

The Commons adopted the legislation by a 158 to 103 vote, despite passionate appeals from the premiers of Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Saskatchewan to defeat the bill on grounds that it breaks Harper's campaign promise to protect provincial resource revenues and to honour guarantees laid out in the 2005 Atlantic accords.

The Liberals and NDP voted against the bill, as did newly independent MP Bill Casey, a veteran Nova Scotia politician who was booted from the Conservative caucus last week when he broke ranks and voted against the budget bill at an earlier stage of the parliamentary process.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=267d7c94-826a-43d2-8329-3c79c4551ec0

[notyoueither]

What in my statement is untrue? Comparing our rate to the Netherlands is a talking point.

edit - Is Harper trying to make up for lost ground with the UK?

The UK and the Netherlands are hardly noteworthy for being authoritarian, police states. The point is my own, and it's based on me going and having a look at numbers. I hardly call that a talking point (something fed to me by someone else).

I would guess the 'dumb on crime' is something you picked up elsewhere. A talking point, or maybe a better label would be a sound-bite or catch-phrase.

At any rate, go have a look. Canada's incarceration rate is on the low side. I am not crying for violent criminals spending some more time in prison, and white collar criminals actually going to begin with.
Number 93 on the list
http://www.allcountries.org/ranks/prison_incarceration_rates_of_countries_2007.html

Furthermore, from what I know our prisons are presently overcrowded even with a low incarceration rate. The capital parts of the Conservative spending on justice are required anyway.

[Wezil]

Great. I tell you I have an issue with the Justice portfolio. I get specific and tell you exactly why I have a problem with it (3 good points which you ignore in their entirety) and you want to resort to generalizations about national incarceration rates? Good grief.

"Dumb on crime" is the rightful conclusion if you care to talk about Harper's policies.

[notyoueither]

OTTAWA — The Conservatives easily survived the budget vote Tuesday, the defeat of which would have brought down the minority government and triggered an election.

While passage of the budget, which was opposed by the opposition Liberals and New Democrats, but supported by the Bloc Quebecois, was widely expected, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said later he was “delighted” and Finance Minister Jim Flaherty said he was “thrilled.”

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=176fc4c4-05d0-49ee-833a-e9bab261382d

That's from March 27th, 2007.

I too smell a rat. Harper laid down (lay down?) with separatists.

And the final vote on June 12, 2007

OTTAWA -- Conservative and Bloc Quebecois MPs joined forces Tuesday to approve federal budget legislation that includes bitterly contested arrangements that have spurred three premiers to complain that Prime Minister Stephen Harper has broken a key election promise.

The Commons adopted the legislation by a 158 to 103 vote, despite passionate appeals from the premiers of Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Saskatchewan to defeat the bill on grounds that it breaks Harper's campaign promise to protect provincial resource revenues and to honour guarantees laid out in the 2005 Atlantic accords.

The Liberals and NDP voted against the bill, as did newly independent MP Bill Casey, a veteran Nova Scotia politician who was booted from the Conservative caucus last week when he broke ranks and voted against the budget bill at an earlier stage of the parliamentary process.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/n...9-3c79c4551ec0

He didn't need the votes!

There were 124 Conservatives.

The nays were
May 15, vote no 186, nay 115
May 15, vote no 187, nay 114
June 5, vote no 195, nay 0
June 5, vote no 196, nay 108
June 12, vote no 200, nay 101
June 12, vote no 201, nay 103
June 12, vote no 202, nay 103

The condition of requiring the support of the Bloc was never fulfilled.

[Wezil]

Where do you get 202 from?

[notyoueither]

Great. I tell you I have an issue with the Justice portfolio. I get specific and tell you exactly why I have a problem with it (3 good points which you ignore in their entirety) and you want to resort to generalizations about national incarceration rates? Good grief.

"Dumb on crime" is the rightful conclusion if you care to talk about Harper's policies.

Let's start with a simple point.

How is more prison space dumb if we already have overcrowded prisons with a low incarceration rate?

I would like to read about this if you can direct me to it.

(including some an Ontario court has ruled aren't even offences)

I think I'm going to say that the courts do not decide what is an offence (disclaimer re the Constitution) but I'd like to know where you are coming from. I've been wondering.

[notyoueither]

Where do you get 202 from?

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Housebills/BillVotes.aspx?Language=E&Parl=39&Ses=1&Bill=C52

[Wezil]

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Housebills/BillVotes.aspx?Language=E&Parl=39&Ses=1&Bill=C52

Ahh, so you mean "Vote number 202", not 202 yeahs. My bad.

I will concede you wiggle out on a technicality.

[Wezil]

Let's start with a simple point.

How is more prison space dumb if we already have overcrowded prisons with a low incarceration rate?

I would like to read about this if you can direct me to it.

It isn't but it it is counterproductive to up your inmate count at the same time. The additional issue is the download cost to the provinces that the feds aren't ponying up for (anything 2 years less a day).

I'm not sure what info and/or area you are after here...

I think I'm going to say that the courts do not decide what is an offence (disclaimer re the Constitution) but I'd like to know where you are coming from. I've been wondering.

Yeah, that pesky Constitution.

Surely you have heard about the ON prostitution case?

[notyoueither]

Ahh, so you mean "Vote number 202", not 202 yeahs. My bad.

I will concede you wiggle out on a technicality.

This is going to be confusing for anyone else. The Liberals have used the tactic of staying away from votes that could topple the government if they were not serious about toppling the government. They stayed away to some extent on these votes (there were 103 Liberal and 29 NDP). If the Bloc were hostile to the government, they would have had more MPs stay away from the vote.

[Wezil]

The BQ sure liked that document though didn't they? As I said earlier, did he give away the farm? That is the relevant point. The BQ will do what the BQ does.

[notyoueither]

Yeah, that pesky Constitution.

Surely you have heard about the ON prostitution case?

Well, then, I am aware of that one (not detailed). If it survives appeal then that will be that.

Do you think that the opinion of a single judge, once, somewhere precludes legislatures from saying 'nuh-uh, we make the laws?'

[Wezil]

Anyway, to the other issue. I couldn't find an article from the time of the decision (it;s past late for me now) but there was a recent article about the upcoming appeal.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/state-has-no-obligation-to-protect-prostitutes-ottawa-to-argue-at-appeal/article1935992/

"she struck down the laws governing pimping, keeping a brothel and communicating for the purposes of prostitution."

At least 2 of those 3 are on Harper's list of mandatory minimums to raise.

[notyoueither]

The BQ sure liked that document though didn't they? As I said earlier, did he give away the farm? That is the relevant point. The BQ will do what the BQ does.

They also criticised it as pandering to help the provinical Liberals.

:head spins: