Religion: Real or fake, the poll

[Lorizael]

I am arguing it is rational because it is necessary.

Most people won't die for things/devote themselves for things/put lots of effort into things without believing in them. Yet doing so is how most of our achievements (all?) have came about.

Most things that require action lack sufficient evidence to be true without any belief.

Additionally, I think if you look at philosophy it would be impossible to do any science/engineering/etc without belief.

JM

Ah. I would have to disagree with you on that point. I think there is a significant amount that gets done based on nothing more than inertia, and I think that we act in many cases in indirect support of ideas that may or may not be based on belief.

For example, I think that capitalism works most of the time not because people really believe in it, but because they simply act out of inertia within the capitalistic system.

Additionally, I think that most of the protesters in Egypt, for example, don't really believe in democracy. Most of them are probably just angry and poor and have decided to act in support of the democratic movement merely because it gives them a way to express their dissatisfaction with being angry and poor.

[Jon Miller]

But doesn't it matter, if they become a democracy, that some believe in it?

If none believed in it, I guarantee that they wouldn't become a democracy... because some do believe in other things.

But even as far as it goes, they believe that in some other system life will be better in XYZ ways. There is incomplete evidence for this... yet they are out there protesting anyways.

And it could be argued that in the face of the challenges it has faced, that the capitalistic system would not exist without people believing in it. Not saying that the majority of people need to believe in it all the time, or even that there is never inertia (for a system in place). Just when stormy seas exist, belief is stronger.

And without a doubt, people have believed and died about capitalism. Just like they have about socialism and communism. And democracy and monarchy.

And I think that the progress of humanity wouldn't exist without it. Even on the cases where I don't believe the same (monarchy, for example).

JM

[Lorizael]

But that doesn't refute my point, Jon. You said that belief was a requirement for action, and that's why it's rational. I'm arguing that while some may definitely believe, it's not required for action.

[Jon Miller]

But that doesn't refute my point, Jon. You said that belief was a requirement for action, and that's why it's rational. I'm arguing that while some may definitely believe, it's not required for action.

You pointed to the people in Egypt.

I pointed that they do believe. The people who are protesting believe in something, not necessary democracy (but if democracy triumphs, it will be because some do (maybe even not in egypt, but in the US/EU) believe in democracy).

So I don't think your argument is true, can you provide another example?

JM
(BTW, our argument now is that a lack of any belief is irrational. Which is a stronger argument than that having any belief is rational. Unless you are seeking to prove that practically everyone, throughout history, has been fundamentally and irrevocably irrational.)

[Lorizael]

Unless you are seeking to prove that practically everyone, throughout history, has been fundamentally and irrevocably irrational.

This is my belief. That is not to say that irrational people do not sometimes act rationally, or that irrational people are incapable of putting forth rational arguments but acting irrationally.

[rah]

How can anyone equate a belief that democracy benefits people better than communism with a belief in GOD??? They are not in any way related.

[Jon Miller]

They are both beliefs with incomplete evidence.

JM

[rah]

Incomplete is much different than ZERO.

[Jon Miller]

Can you provide proof that it is zero?

I think that most rational religious people would say that it is not zero.

I am not interested in arguing about the existence of God or not, but rather about whether belief in God is rational behavior.

And I think that it is likely that if one person is by themselves claiming that everyone else is irrational, they probably are the irrational one.

JM

[Jon Miller]

By the way, a lot of evidence isn't of the sort you could publish in a scientific journal, but that doesn't stop it from being evidence.

Such as:
"Democracy works quite well in Sweden." could be taken as evidence for belief in democracy in the Middle East.

Others would claim that that wasn't evidence in favor of a belief in democracy in the Middle East.

This is totally independent of whether the evidence is true or not true.

But still, it serves as part of the basis of the belief of democracy in the Middle East.

JM

[Lorizael]

And I think that it is likely that if one person is by themselves claiming that everyone else is irrational, they probably are the irrational one.

Oh, I'm definitely an irrational person. I have some pretty rational beliefs about certain subjects I consider important, but my actions are largely irrational. I've never claimed otherwise. Nevertheless, I maintain that the vast majority of all humans who have ever lived have been just as, if not more irrational than I am. It's a tired trope, but all you have to do is browse through wikipedia's list of cognitive biases to see how overwhelmingly dominant our irrational behaviors are.

[hansandersen]

And I think that it is likely that if one person is by themselves claiming that everyone else is irrational, they probably are the irrational one.

At one time, the majority of people irrationally believed that fire was divine.

At one time, the majority of people irrationally believed that the world was flat.

At one time, the majority of people irrationally believed that the earth was at the center of the universe.

At one time, the majority of people irrationally believed that humans were created less than ten thousand years ago.

At one time, the majority of people irrationally believed in a supernatural being.

[Lorizael]

No. Those were incorrect beliefs, but not necessarily irrational given the evidence.

[Jon Miller]

JM

[Al B. Sure!]

British

Is talking fast and loud and barely understandable supposed to be funny?