Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

It's somewhat amusing to see Apple throw away market leadership now, just like it did in the 80s

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    It's been over 3 years since I've even thought about this stuff and I may be forgetting a lot but this is basically how I would approach analysis of AAPL... (apologies if this is all very basic but I think it will be helpful for this thread; it'll take me long enough to type it so have some respect)

    First, I would want to get a grip on the industry itself. Who are the players and their relative positions in market capitalization and market share? What are the trends in the industry? What new product lines are in development and what are their sales projections? What inputs are required in this industry and how will changes in commodity prices or the structure of the supplier industry affect this industry? This is where you apply things like the Six Forces Model and SWOT Analysis to get a grip on AAPL's industry, where AAPL stands in it, the opportunities for AAPL, the opportunities for competitors, etc.

    Now, AAPL is tricky because it's in the "Personal Computers" industry but that only touches on some of what AAPL does. Technology firms especially rarely fit into these neat industry categories with obvious competitors like the automobile industry does. Also, the Personal Computers industry isn't very meaningful since according to Yahoo, only AAPL and DELL are in the industry. Taking a broader view and looking at the Technology sector as a whole presents a host of new incongruities: it includes everything from Oracle to Vodafone. You have to use common sense knowing that it won't be perfect.

    You would try to answer those industry outlook questions I asked earlier among others but you should also take a look at statements, market capitalization, P/E ratios, book value per share, etc. to get some understanding of what a firm in the industry should look like. Again, AAPL is a complicated case but if for example, I were looking at a simpler industry like the automobile industry, it would be useful to know how Ford's P/E ratio compares to the industry average or how debt-leveraged Ford is relative to other firms in the industry. You can also calculate expected stock prices using this comparison, which would be at the heart of this matter.

    You're not just looking at how a firm compares to others. You're also looking at fundamentals; what is the fiscal health of the firm? How does it perform (earnings per share, cash flow to assets, etc.)? What is the level of the firm's activity and how well does it collect on receivables (asset turnover, collection ratio, etc.)? How is the firm financed (debt/equity ratio)? How much liquidity does the firm have (acid test, working capital, etc.)? Certain activities by the firm may provide you with some information (for example, debt signalling).

    Now that's just the fundamentals. It would be helpful to also explore the technicals. That's where looking at things like put/call ratios will come into play.
    "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
    "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Asher View Post
      What exactly do you think I was doing?

      I was calling the analysts idiots and laid out my case for why it's overvalued.
      The analysts aren't the ones who put it at $350. The market, which is smarter and better-informed than you, did. By trying to outguess the market you are at least as bad as the analysts you mock.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Kuciwalker View Post
        To justifiably believe that an asset is mispriced you need to be smarter and have better information than all of the smartest and best-informed people at GS, etc.

        ... and Bear Stearns, and Lehman Brothers, and... oh wait.
        (\__/)
        (='.'=)
        (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

        Comment


        • #64
          I thought someone might get a kick out of this... a few people here wanted me to vocaroo my posts.

          Asher, this is my 'professional' voice, which you asked about a while back. I'm reading my long post in this thread.

          "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
          "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Kuciwalker View Post
            The analysts aren't the ones who put it at $350. The market, which is smarter and better-informed than you, did. By trying to outguess the market you are at least as bad as the analysts you mock.
            I think Asher is thinking this is a case of 'irrational exuberance'
            "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
            "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Al B. Sure! View Post
              I thought someone might get a kick out of this... a few people here wanted me to vocaroo my posts.

              Asher, this is my 'professional' voice, which you asked about a while back. I'm reading my long post in this thread.

              For "professional" voice I found it just a bit too fast. I also noticed "g"s were consistently dropped. ie. Lookin instead of looking.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Al B. Sure! View Post
                I think Asher is thinking this is a case of 'irrational exuberance'
                Yeah, let's look at the NASDAQ composite for a moment:



                Does it look to you like the 1996 price of tech stocks was too low?

                More evidence that trying to call bubbles is a fool's errand.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Kuciwalker View Post
                  The analysts aren't the ones who put it at $350. The market, which is smarter and better-informed than you, did.
                  Oh, to be so naive...

                  Again -- did you pay any attention at all to the dot com bubble? If you were too young, maybe you should look it up... The market is not smarter and better-informed. People get crazy and start buying things because the price is going up. It leads to a bubble. Everyone was buying dot-com stocks even though the earnings didn't justify it because the all assumed the growth could only continue apace. The exact same thing is happening to AAPL right now. It is a bubble. The earnings certainly do not justify the price and the potential for future earnings justifying that price any time soon is very, very low. People are buying it because it keeps going up. And eventually it'll stop going up. And those people who kept buying it because it's going up will start selling because they think the ride is over. When they start selling, there's a crash.

                  You need to look at the dynamics of the stock market with more than just an Excel spreadsheet. You need to look at the psychology as well. The stock market is far more irrational than you seem to think is possible...
                  "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                  Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Kuci, let's say you have $100k to invest right now. Do you put it in AAPL at $350.56?
                    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I don't know about you, but I think that a market going parabolic is totally sustainable! BUY BUY BUY![/2001]

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Kuciwalker View Post
                        More evidence that trying to call bubbles is a fool's errand.
                        That would be trying to call tops (or bottoms). (Disclaimer: I'm not talking about butt sex here!)

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Asher View Post
                          Kuci, let's say you have $100k to invest right now. Do you put it in AAPL at $350.56?
                          Of course not, you put it in an indexed mutual fund which may invest in AAPL.
                          If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
                          ){ :|:& };:

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Asher View Post
                            Kuci, let's say you have $100k to invest right now. Do you put it in AAPL at $350.56?
                            No, I buy an index fund. Duh.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Asher View Post
                              Oh, to be so naive...

                              Again -- did you pay any attention at all to the dot com bubble? If you were too young, maybe you should look it up... The market is not smarter and better-informed. People get crazy and start buying things because the price is going up. It leads to a bubble. Everyone was buying dot-com stocks even though the earnings didn't justify it because the all assumed the growth could only continue apace. The exact same thing is happening to AAPL right now. It is a bubble. The earnings certainly do not justify the price and the potential for future earnings justifying that price any time soon is very, very low. People are buying it because it keeps going up. And eventually it'll stop going up. And those people who kept buying it because it's going up will start selling because they think the ride is over. When they start selling, there's a crash.

                              You need to look at the dynamics of the stock market with more than just an Excel spreadsheet. You need to look at the psychology as well. The stock market is far more irrational than you seem to think is possible...


                              You propose that there is a reliable method by which someone without extraordinary intelligence or knowledge can decide whether a stock is overvalued, undervalued, or at the correct price. And yet for some reason no one in the world is using this method. Anyone who did use it would quickly accumulate billions of dollars and/or be hired by a firm with access to billions of dollars, and the scale of his purchases would actually adjust the market prices to his computed "correct price".

                              Your position doesn't rely on most investors being "irrational", it relies on all of them being irrational. If even just a few people aren't irrational, the market price is efficient.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Braindead View Post
                                For "professional" voice I found it just a bit too fast. I also noticed "g"s were consistently dropped. ie. Lookin instead of looking.
                                We speak fast on the East Coast. I can't imagine my pace raising any eyebrows in New York.
                                "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
                                "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X